Virtual PC

**Gorganzola** · 06-15-2006, 05:11 PM

Since we have the forum I thought I would use it.

I think it is a cool idea.

I installed Virtual PC 2004 on my dual Xeon setup and put the virtual drive image on a seperate hard drive from the system drive. The only problem that I found was that the Virtual system ran significantly slower than I expected it to. I installed the additional updates that it wants to have installed to make it work faster, but it still seemed rather slow.

What kind of performance should I be expecting on a system that is running dual 2.66GHz Xeon 512MB Cache, with 2GB of memory and RAID 0 system driver and 3 individual drives for storage purposes?

Will going to a CPU with VT or the like make that much difference?

switch_abx · 06-16-2006, 01:54 AM

Gorgonzola, Virtualization Technolgy based on non-hypervisor technology, has a performance penalty of 10% - 15%. As far as I knowonly Xen 3.0 is based on hypervisor technology, which only has a performance penalty of 2% - 3%.

It don't think that your version will take advantage of Intel's VT technology or AMD's Pacifica. Only the newer releases of Virtualization Technology software will take advantage of VT and/or Pacifica. For instance XenSource is tightly developing Xen together with Intel. Intel even is the #2 contributor of code to the Xen development, next to the Cambridge University. Please note that the Intel's VT technology only is included in the latest processors and chipset. For sure the Conroe processors will include it and only a few Pentium 4 processors (and chipsets). I know the 975x chipsets support Intel VT.

So, to summarize above:
1. VT Technology or Pacifica will increase performance as long as chipset and processor support it. So, you've got to check this out prior to puchasing.
2. Look for Virtualization Technolgy software based on hypervisor. XenSource and the University of Cambridge, who developed Xen in their laboratories, are the first applying the hypervisor. The biggest advantage of latter technology is that it's much faster.

I add to this that Xen 3.0 is OpenSource (as opposed to XenSource's XenEnterprise, which is a commercial product) and free of charge. On Xen 3.0 you can throw any OS at e.g. Windows, OpenBSD, Linux. You just name it.

Hope this info helps you out.

switch_abx · 06-16-2006, 07:53 AM

Gorgonzola, if you wish to try out Xen, you can download a bootable Demo-CD with Xen 3.0.

Here is the link:

http://www.xensource.com/xen/downloads/

**Gorganzola** · 06-16-2006, 11:46 PM

There is also Virtual Server 2005 Enterprise Edition that I can download but I don't think it takes advantage of VT or Pacifica.

I'd love to get something like MCE running on XEN to see how that works. hehe

Howard Stern_abx · 04-01-2007, 02:04 AM

PC 2007 is now a free download from Microsoft.

Acid8000 · 04-01-2007, 02:14 AM

Thanks for the info. I wonder what changes from 2004 have been made.

Update: Oh I see. Looked around in the options and found settings for hardware virtualisation. I wouldn't mind a CPU that supported that heh.

pianissimo357 · 04-10-2007, 10:18 PM

VMware's Server (not ESX) is free as well (vmware.com/download/server/). I've only just downloaded it (and have yet to install it), so I can't comment on its performance as of yet, but a knowledged gentleman who shops at my MicroCenter location gave every impression that he thought it was the bee's knees.

Cogar · 04-10-2007, 11:04 PM

VMware Server is a very good product. For that matter, so is VirtualBox (through which I happen to be posting at the moment). For the record, here is my impression of each:

VMware Server
Program quality = excellent
Number of officially supported host and guest systems = large
Documentation = excellent total content, somewhat confusing presentation
User friendliness and GUI interface quality = good
Ease of setup = good
Performance = good
License = confusing. Although "free" and containing references to the GPL, it also includes statements like "If you activate the Software or any Licensed Additional Module with an evaluation Software License Key ("Evaluation Product") you may use the Evaluation Product until the Expiration Date only to evaluate the suitability of the Evaluation Product for licensing on a for-fee basis."

VirtualBox
Program quality = excellent
Number of officially supported host and guest systems = moderate (although I have installed other systems as guests and they ran fine).
Documentation = reasonable total content, but the manual needs to expand to perhaps double its present size (presently 105 pages)
User friendliness and GUI interface quality = excellent
Ease of setup = excellent
Performance = good
License = Two available. The open source version is GPL. The one with the extra goodies contains proprietary parts and has a license they call Personal Use and Evaluation License, which basically states it is free for personal use, education, and evaluation. Businesses are expected to pay a license fee.

**pointreyes** · 04-10-2007, 11:35 PM

Still prefer VMware Workstation. Version 6.0 is finally RC1, with the debug feature off. VPC is a major turn-off when MS demands what you are allowed to run on it. Can't even run Windows 2000 on VPC 2007. Linux distros (as well as BSD editions) are considerably easier to install on VMware.

**SubZero** · 07-11-2007, 10:57 AM

I believe we now have over 200 Virtual servers at work. Running on ESX server hardware (over 30 physical servers or something, I'll count them tomorrow)... Works really, really well.. We are having performance problems with virtual citrix servers though...

But then again, ESX is not really the same as the software you guys are talking about.

Cogar · 07-11-2007, 11:17 AM

Although ESX (which I think is now a component of VMware Infrastructure), runs on bare metal rather than a Windows or Linux host, the guest environment it creates is essentially the same as other virtual environments, so I believe your comments are on topic. For the record, we are in the process of converting our machines that run VMware Server to VMware Infrastructure, and the transition is relatively easy--although not free of "bumps." Actually, I don't think it will be that long (maybe 5 years) before "Joe Average" runs his home computer in a virtual environment.

**pointreyes** · 07-11-2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cogar

Actually, I don't think it will be that long (maybe 5 years) before "Joe Average" runs his home computer in a virtual environment.

“pointreyes nutcase” is already running certain virtual sessions for his family. For example, I’m running an educational software tool on a Windows 2003 virtual session that my wife remote desktop’s into from her Apple (running OS X) and my kids on another box (x86 Vista Business) connect to as a client. Also, some of the games that don’t run on Vista or XP will run on the Win98 virtual session. Kids don’t notice the difference since the end result to availability to the software is what matters.

switch_abx · 07-13-2007, 04:05 AM

Anyone using Microsoft's Virtual Server 2005 R2 Enterprise Edition with the latest SP1? Virtual Server 2005 R2 Enterprise Edition is offered free for download by Microsoft.

**pointreyes** · 07-13-2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by switch_abx

Anyone using Microsoft's Virtual Server 2005 R2 Enterprise Edition with the latest SP1? Virtual Server 2005 R2 Enterprise Edition is offered free for download by Microsoft.

I find MS' free server to limited compared to VMware's free server. Plus if you are running a dual-core system then the VMware offerings are considerably better since they support two procs.

XJ. · 07-13-2007, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pointreyes

I find MS' free server to limited compared to VMware's free server. Plus if you are running a dual-core system then the VMware offerings are considerably better since they support two procs.

06-15-2006, 05:11 PM	#1
Gorganzola Stuck in 3D Join Date: May 2001 Location: Hangin' with the fruits Posts: 9,343	Virtual PC Since we have the forum I thought I would use it. I think it is a cool idea. I installed Virtual PC 2004 on my dual Xeon setup and put the virtual drive image on a seperate hard drive from the system drive. The only problem that I found was that the Virtual system ran significantly slower than I expected it to. I installed the additional updates that it wants to have installed to make it work faster, but it still seemed rather slow. What kind of performance should I be expecting on a system that is running dual 2.66GHz Xeon 512MB Cache, with 2GB of memory and RAID 0 system driver and 3 individual drives for storage purposes? Will going to a CPU with VT or the like make that much difference? __________________ TTFN. I wasn't asleep at the switch, I was drunk. -- Homer J. Simpson Q. How many dull people does it take to change a lightbulb? A. One. A very useful tool on these forums: You can Meebo in public.
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06-16-2006, 01:54 AM	#2
switch_abx Xen now Citrix's Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 2,607	Gorgonzola, Virtualization Technolgy based on non-hypervisor technology, has a performance penalty of 10% - 15%. As far as I knowonly Xen 3.0 is based on hypervisor technology, which only has a performance penalty of 2% - 3%. It don't think that your version will take advantage of Intel's VT technology or AMD's Pacifica. Only the newer releases of Virtualization Technology software will take advantage of VT and/or Pacifica. For instance XenSource is tightly developing Xen together with Intel. Intel even is the #2 contributor of code to the Xen development, next to the Cambridge University. Please note that the Intel's VT technology only is included in the latest processors and chipset. For sure the Conroe processors will include it and only a few Pentium 4 processors (and chipsets). I know the 975x chipsets support Intel VT. So, to summarize above: 1. VT Technology or Pacifica will increase performance as long as chipset and processor support it. So, you've got to check this out prior to puchasing. 2. Look for Virtualization Technolgy software based on hypervisor. XenSource and the University of Cambridge, who developed Xen in their laboratories, are the first applying the hypervisor. The biggest advantage of latter technology is that it's much faster. I add to this that Xen 3.0 is OpenSource (as opposed to XenSource's XenEnterprise, which is a commercial product) and free of charge. On Xen 3.0 you can throw any OS at e.g. Windows, OpenBSD, Linux. You just name it. Hope this info helps you out. Last edited by switch : 06-16-2006 at 06:40 PM.
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06-16-2006, 07:53 AM	#3
switch_abx Xen now Citrix's Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 2,607	Gorgonzola, if you wish to try out Xen, you can download a bootable Demo-CD with Xen 3.0. Here is the link: http://www.xensource.com/xen/downloads/
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06-16-2006, 11:46 PM	#4
Gorganzola Stuck in 3D Join Date: May 2001 Location: Hangin' with the fruits Posts: 9,343	There is also Virtual Server 2005 Enterprise Edition that I can download but I don't think it takes advantage of VT or Pacifica. I'd love to get something like MCE running on XEN to see how that works. hehe __________________ TTFN. I wasn't asleep at the switch, I was drunk. -- Homer J. Simpson Q. How many dull people does it take to change a lightbulb? A. One. A very useful tool on these forums: You can Meebo in public.
(Offline)

04-01-2007, 02:04 AM	#5
Howard Stern_abx King Of All Media Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: VA Posts: 790	PC 2007 is now a free download from Microsoft. __________________ Windows Vista 64\| E8500@4.14Gig\| Zalman 9700 LED \| Asus Rampage Formula \| 2 WD 74 gig Raptors \|1 250 GIG WD 16 meg cache\| 4 GIGS of Corsair Dominator DDR-2 1066 \| Diamond Viper 3870 \| NEC AD-7170A DVD burner\| Lite-on LH-20A1H \| SB X-fi Fatal1ty\| Logitech 5300E 5.1 speakers\| Onboard GIG Nic\| Verizon FIOS Internet service 30 megs down/5 up \| ViewSonic VX 2640W 1080P \| Full Size Gigabyte Aurora Tower with 4 case fans\| FSP 600W power supply\| Canon 8400F Scanner\| Canon I850 Photo Printer\| Logitech G5 Laser Mouse
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04-01-2007, 02:14 AM	#6
Acid8000 Acid8000 aka. phildee Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,400	Thanks for the info. I wonder what changes from 2004 have been made. Update: Oh I see. Looked around in the options and found settings for hardware virtualisation. I wouldn't mind a CPU that supported that heh. __________________ CPU: Intel Pentium 4 3.2 GHz with HT (540) [Zalman CNPS9500 AT] Motherboard: Intel D915PBL Memory: 2 x 1 GB Corsair ValueSelect DDR2 Graphics: nVidia GeForce 7900 GS 256 MB (ASUS EN7900GS/2DHT/256M) [Zalman VF700 Cu] Audio: Creative Sound Blaster Audigy 4; Sennheiser HD 555; Pioneer SA-5300 Stereo Amplifier; Pioneer SCS-12 Speakers Storage: Seagate 160 GB SATA 7200.7; Seagate 250 GB SATA 7200.9; Gigabyte i-RAM with 4 x 1 GB Geil DDR RAM; Western Digital 320 GB Caviar SE16 in Antec MX-1 eSATA Optical drives: Pioneer DVR-108 DVD RW; Lite-On LTD163D DVD ROM Power: Antec TruePower Trio 550 Monitors: Dell 2007FP 20.1" LCD (S-IPS version); Hansol E14AL 13.5" CRT Networking: Linksys WRT54GL [Tomato firmware]; Netcomm NB6 ADSL2+ Modem Other hardware: Panasonic 3½" Floppy; 3 x 80mm Case Fans; A-Link ATX Case; Canon LPB 3000; Canon CanoScan N340P; Logitech Media Keyboard; Logitech MX 518 Optical Mouse; Logitech Dual Action Gamepad; Logitech QuickCam Family Operating system: Windows XP Professional Edition Service Pack 3; Ubuntu Linux 8.04 Hardy Heron Last edited by Acid8000 : 04-01-2007 at 02:49 AM.
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04-10-2007, 10:18 PM	#7
pianissimo357 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: In/Around Atlanta Posts: 5	VMware's Server (not ESX) is free as well (vmware.com/download/server/). I've only just downloaded it (and have yet to install it), so I can't comment on its performance as of yet, but a knowledged gentleman who shops at my MicroCenter location gave every impression that he thought it was the bee's knees.
(Offline)

04-10-2007, 11:04 PM	#8
Cogar Sleuth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: It varies, but usually within 100 feet of a keyboard. Posts: 7,197	VMware Server is a very good product. For that matter, so is VirtualBox (through which I happen to be posting at the moment). For the record, here is my impression of each: VMware Server Program quality = excellent Number of officially supported host and guest systems = large Documentation = excellent total content, somewhat confusing presentation User friendliness and GUI interface quality = good Ease of setup = good Performance = good License = confusing. Although "free" and containing references to the GPL, it also includes statements like "If you activate the Software or any Licensed Additional Module with an evaluation Software License Key ("Evaluation Product") you may use the Evaluation Product until the Expiration Date only to evaluate the suitability of the Evaluation Product for licensing on a for-fee basis." VirtualBox Program quality = excellent Number of officially supported host and guest systems = moderate (although I have installed other systems as guests and they ran fine). Documentation = reasonable total content, but the manual needs to expand to perhaps double its present size (presently 105 pages) User friendliness and GUI interface quality = excellent Ease of setup = excellent Performance = good License = Two available. The open source version is GPL. The one with the extra goodies contains proprietary parts and has a license they call Personal Use and Evaluation License, which basically states it is free for personal use, education, and evaluation. Businesses are expected to pay a license fee.
(Offline)

04-10-2007, 11:35 PM	#9
pointreyes The race for quality has no finish line- so technically, it's more like a death march. Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 18,159	Still prefer VMware Workstation. Version 6.0 is finally RC1, with the debug feature off. VPC is a major turn-off when MS demands what you are allowed to run on it. Can't even run Windows 2000 on VPC 2007. Linux distros (as well as BSD editions) are considerably easier to install on VMware. __________________
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07-11-2007, 10:57 AM	#10
SubZero Moderator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Below sealevel Posts: 9,665	I believe we now have over 200 Virtual servers at work. Running on ESX server hardware (over 30 physical servers or something, I'll count them tomorrow)... Works really, really well.. We are having performance problems with virtual citrix servers though... But then again, ESX is not really the same as the software you guys are talking about. __________________ Main Rig: Asus P5K \| Intel Core Quad Q6600 \| Corsair XMS 6400-4gig eVGA GeForce 8800 GTX KO ACS3 \| X-Fi ExtremeMusic \| Z-5500D OCZ GameXstream 850W \| ThermalTake Aguila \| Logitech G-15 Logitech MX1000 \| Synology DS-207+ NAS (2x500WD-SATA2-RAID0)
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07-11-2007, 11:17 AM	#11
Cogar Sleuth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: It varies, but usually within 100 feet of a keyboard. Posts: 7,197	Although ESX (which I think is now a component of VMware Infrastructure), runs on bare metal rather than a Windows or Linux host, the guest environment it creates is essentially the same as other virtual environments, so I believe your comments are on topic. For the record, we are in the process of converting our machines that run VMware Server to VMware Infrastructure, and the transition is relatively easy--although not free of "bumps." Actually, I don't think it will be that long (maybe 5 years) before "Joe Average" runs his home computer in a virtual environment.
(Offline)

07-13-2007, 04:05 AM	#13
switch_abx Xen now Citrix's Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 2,607	Virtual Server 2005 Enterprise Edition R2 SP1 Anyone using Microsoft's Virtual Server 2005 R2 Enterprise Edition with the latest SP1? Virtual Server 2005 R2 Enterprise Edition is offered free for download by Microsoft.
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