Vista SP1 details: some good news for X-Fi owners?

[TQ]

From Anandtech:

Another significant fix appearing in SP1 is a partial resolution to the conflict between the MultiMedia Class Scheduler Service and networking. As we’ve talked about the issue a bit before, the Vista audio stack is now in user space, which has lead to a change in how it operates. MMCSS boosts the priority of multimedia processes to real-time levels so that lower-priority processes can’t interrupt multimedia playback. During this time many other operations are interrupted or delayed so that they do not themselves interrupt the audio stack. One area that is dialed back involves the network interfaces, which are limited to 10k packets per second as a precaution.

For SP1 we were hoping for a complete overhaul of the MMCSS so that it ceased adversely affecting network performance, unfortunately what we’re getting is something about mid-way towards that. With SP1 it is now possible to control the amount of network throttling that MMCSS does, which means that throttling hasn’t been removed completely nor has it even been adjusted as far as the defaults are concerned. A quick test with Microsoft’s NTttcp tool shows the throttling level remains the same post-SP1 as it was pre-SP1 (roughly 70Mbps on a 1000Mb connection), which means SP1 will not be bringing any immediate relief. Furthermore there’s no GUI component (or real documentation) for this tweak, so users will be left to directly modifying the registry, a very uninviting situation.

What we do know is that this tweak only affects network receive performance, with a key apparently dictating the maximum percentage of the amount of network traffic allowed while the MMCSS is actively working. The key defaults to 10 (for 10%) and can be adjusted to between 1 and 100, with the system requiring a reboot between adjustments. We did some quick testing with this key and were easily able to set it to 70%, which got us around 550Mbps of bandwidth through NTttcp, and we probably could have gone higher - especially on multi-core platforms.

While this is a solution to the MMCSS throttling issue, it’s not a good solution. The default value still makes for rather anemic performance on gigabit networks and the nature of the solution means that there is no single correct value to use to maximize network performance while not interrupting the audio stack; the highest value is highly dependent on processor performance. As a result power users wanting to correct this deficiency will have to a lot of experimenting on their own to find the highest value their system can tolerate without affecting multimedia playback. Had this value at least been auto-sensing we wouldn’t be so disappointed in Microsoft, but at the end of the day this isn’t a great solution. We’ll fully admit the problem will only affect a small number of users (those with gigabit networks who need high network performance while using multimedia applications), but then we’re exactly that kind of user.

For what it’s worth, we did inadvertently discover that the MMCSS throttling process doesn’t engage when audio streams are using APIs other than WaveOut and DirectSound (i.e. aren’t directly routed through the user-mode audio stack). OpenAL and ASIO do not trigger throttling, which means it’s possible to have both unthrottled networking and proper multimedia playback under Vista, as long as there’s hardware present that can deal with these APIs. This may very well be good news for Creative Labs in particular, whose DirectSound-to-OpenAL “Alchemy” wrapper can be used to have DirectSound applications routed to OpenAL instead and preventing throttling.

[polonyc2]

hmmm...so what's the good news?...I didn't read any good news there

[TQ]

The possible good news is in the last paragraph, but the preceding information sets up the context in which the data in the last paragraph must be viewed.

[Birowsky]

mr. TQ.. um.. WOW.. i mean.. can u like.. talk human? no offence at all dont get me wrong! but those things u stated.. chees..
doode, i still think u can help me (even though i understood like 15% of what u sad) just, dont shoot me

allright

i got 4G ram, nForce4, and XFI Fatal1ty (also got keyboard and mouse)

problem:
XP souds perfect
Vista doesnt (u know, crackling, pops, NFSPS performance is lame, stuff like that)

so.. inspecting ure paragraphs i think wat u say is PCI is overloaded? or maybe not. or maybe.. I DONT KNOW MAN, THATS WHY I ASK. AND DONT LOOK AT ME LIKE THAT JUST TELL ME WHAT TO DO
PEACE

ps. i even tried switching PCI slots (what a retard i am)
pss. and then i see its anandtech quoting.. "mom, do u got any HCl left??"

[3 of 7]

OMG, he called TQ a "doode" ..

[Wingit]

Originally Posted by Birowsky

mr. TQ.. um.. WOW.. i mean.. can u like.. talk human? no offence at all dont get me wrong! but those things u stated.. chees..
doode, i still think u can help me (even though i understood like 15% of what u sad) just, dont shoot me

allright

i got 4G ram, nForce4, and XFI Fatal1ty (also got keyboard and mouse)

problem:
XP souds perfect
Vista doesnt (u know, crackling, pops, NFSPS performance is lame, stuff like that)

so.. inspecting ure paragraphs i think wat u say is PCI is overloaded? or maybe not. or maybe.. I DONT KNOW MAN, THATS WHY I ASK. AND DONT LOOK AT ME LIKE THAT JUST TELL ME WHAT TO DO
PEACE

ps. i even tried switching PCI slots (what a retard i am)
pss. and then i see its anandtech quoting.. "mom, do u got any HCl left??"

Eschew obfuscation?....lol!

[TQ]

Originally Posted by Birowsky

mr. TQ.. um.. WOW.. i mean.. can u like.. talk human? no offence at all dont get me wrong! but those things u stated.. chees..
doode, i still think u can help me (even though i understood like 15% of what u sad) just,dont shoot me

What's your question, Birowsky? - the doode

[Birowsky]

the question:

how to kill the crackling

BTW! i just noticed
u use acid 6
dont u think its the best thing for hiphop?!

[TQ]

To answer your last question first, I think Acid 6 is good for just about any kind of music you want to create, as long as it's loop based. It's learning curve is short and Sony's support of Acid is broad and deep. Plus, it's fun to use.

For original music composition I'd have to say Pro Tools 7.4 is practically unbeatable, though there are many who prefer Steinberg's CuBase and Nuendo, which are the choices of my friend Ray Benson of Asleep at The Wheel and his crew over at Bismeaux Studios.
Sonar also has its acolytes.

Now, on to the crackle issue with your Xfi. From what I have read the issue is mainly confined to nForce-based motherboards. Let me ask; have you installed Creative's latest drivers for Vista? They were released just last week.

Also, are you running 32-bit or 64-bit Vista?

One more question, do you hear the crackling in all audio apps or just in games?

[TQ]

Also, do you hear it when using headphones as well as through your speakers? And is it limited to 5.1 or can you hear the crackling when using a 2.1 configuration?

And have you installed Vista Service Pack 1 yet?

[TQ]

You might want to see if there's a BIOS update for your motherboard. But I'd do things in this order:
1: Upgrade the BIOS for your nForce (if one is available) then check for static. If it's still there, then -
2: Install the latest Vista drivers for your Fatal1ty - check for static. If it's still there then -
3: Install Vista Service Pack 1 - repeat the static check.

I'll do some more reading in the meantime. I admit I haven't invested much time in reading about this static issue because I don't run anything but Intel motherboards, which are about as trouble free as you can get. I've heard about the static problem, though, and have always suspected it to be a hardware issue related to the nForce.

[Birowsky]

it is! its nforce hardware problem! those cocaid bustards..
kiddin. i love nvidia. i wish they paired up with intel and rulled the world. if not for america, i wish some nVidian ran for my country ;] am i pushin too far? its just cool talkin to a technitian that understands music (ill kill u with music production questions later on)

k.. on to the problem:

there is this 130+ pages thread on creative.com about this issue so i came to some conclusions that are contradictive to some other stuff. ill try to explain:
1st of all, ill note that im running hardware on the latest drivers with the latest bios
here's my system:
MSI P4N Diamond (nForce 4 Intel Edition) AMIBIOS V1.57
4GB DDR2
X-Fi Fatal1ty (2 channels output)
MSI NX7800GTX 256MB
ACID 6 (my beloved)
Sonar 7 (gives me headache)
Vista SP1 (if it was a girl...)

on to the explanation:
so, as i came to understand, this thing called PCI Saturation happens. apparently, when overloaded, nforce4 lowers the priority of PCI devices, so instead of like 200clocks waiting for PCI BUS lane approval, X-Fi sleeps another 4000 clocks! that creates them couple of microsecond lags of transfer between the X-Fi and the BUS wich is then manifested with them unholy crackles in the audio output.
All this happened before, not so long ago.. in the world of XP at the birth of X-Fi. All came to an end pretty quickly as they released the Drivers sorting out everything.
But what about now? were havin vista more then year, were havin X-Fi more then 2yrs.. are there no drivers capeable of handeling what seemed to be peace of italian cheese for previous ages??
sorry.. i got carried away.. :]
kissiz
and tell me ure name
im daniel btw
cool to meet u

[TQ]

Well, my name is actually TQ, if you can believe it, and I'm pleased to make your acquaintance, Daniel.

This issue may simply be one that can only be resolved with a new sound card or a new motherboard. I've never been a fan of nVidia's motherboards, though I love the video cards. Their motherboards, despite all the enthusiast site reviews, just don't have the real world stability I want in my own systems.
Of course replacing a motherboard/sound card is easier said than done, but at least you have a good idea of what's happening to cause the problem.

A question: do you notice the crackling during gaming sessions, during music sessions or all the time?

By the way, if you want to get the most out of Sonar 7 try this book: Sonar 7 Power! by Scott Garrigus. It goes along way towards making Sonar understandable.