And what do you think about calling Uncle Bill @ M$ for permission to install?

[tamarelle]

Hi Miles!

Thank you for the the link. Very interesting

Hey Pointreyes:

I guess I am lucky But all the same, I sure hope I did not offend you! I was stating all the things that I like about Windows XP, but I am not an expert like you

But NO OS is worth alienating friends, so if my Hard Sell of Windows XP annoyed you I MOST HUMBLY APOLOGIZE ..

I'm sure it didn't, you're much too nice a guy I know. But just in case

Cheers!!

Tam

[CrowdAds]

[cryogen_abx]

nice find miles
i love the register et. al.

its kinda funny seeing os preference compared to religion
sounds almost like some *nix arguments LOL
i still think 2k is the best thing they've done tho
cheers
cryogen

[traveler]

I have read everyone's thoughts in this thread on xp. And, everyone is right. And, everyone addressed the issues that concerned them, both pro and con, good and bad, at length and in detail. I was going to jump in a while ago, but this thread just took off rapidly and deeply explored matters. I thought I would sit back and watch and read. Thank-yous to CYCLOPS, Jacobite, BladeRunner, cryogen, RadPike, StarTraveller, TaxMan, robowang, Guntro, tamarelle, milesc3, patentman, pointreyes, and SubZero for all your thoughts and opinions and experiences. Thanks to your contributions, this thread has been one of the best reads in a long time. I hope everyone who reads it thinks so.

We can only hope that new software os developement can bring a better and more stable os and likewise with new applications, and support all wanted legacy items. That is advancement. We all have to ask the question: Does what I'm running now do all I need it to do? If so, great. If not, hope the next thing solves your problem.

It's the incidious side of things and the excersise of monopolistic power that concern me.

It starts with the tale of the ms weblinks being inserted into downloaded webpages from sites that have nothing to do with ms. Of course the mom and pops would never know it and neither would we.

But my biggest concern is the new hoops M$ wants computer users to start jumping through. - The emphisis is on "start". - It won't end. And monopolistic power, unchecked, can do it. Let's jump ahead years, after everyone has just about discarded all the non PAed os's because of new hardware or whatever requires the new os of the future. Now out comes Microsoft's newest os. And if M$ wanted to stop supporting all the other older os's, they could. The one year licenses of those PA os's would expire; the "old" os would stop legally working, and if you wanted to legally run your stuff, fine, just give more money to Uncle Bill's company. If I had xp at that time and wanted to keep using it after a couple of dozen hardware changes, what would my choice be if M$ stopped supporting it.

Intuit has required PA for years and they do stop supporting "old" versions. But they are not doing what M$ is doing. Once activated, the Intuit software will run forever. There is no hardware change that shuts down the software. No new changing PA code.

So, I am happy that xp is good for those of you who like it and choose it to run their stuff in whatever new fashion the new os's improvements have. But, I am on the side of owning the use of the products I buy, unhindered by the product's manufacturer for as long as I choose to use it. And the thought that I the purchaser would have to pay for (where else would the money come from) the schemes of M$ in their investment of servers and people and telephones and space for the above for years to come to administer the PA and regulate ninety-nine percent of the users in an attempt to foil one percent who will find the cracks anyway is outrageous.

I originally put this thread in the "general" forum because to me it's not about xp. It's about how M$ is running their monopoly and designing their new products. (I would just about call M$ a utility company.)

[SubZero]

Nice closing statement traveler!

Well said and I agree a 99% with you on your last points. Also a very good point about people having discarded all their non PAed OS's. They will have more power over us than they ever had.... I'm not looking forward at that prospect. Not looking forward to the time where most software developers start following MS' strategy...

MS is on a mission for sure and they probably determined their long-term strategy allready. I wish we would know what it was although I have a pretty good idea (and you too I think) This is only the start and time will tell where it ends....

I did move this thread here since it seemed to develop into a XP discussion. I'm moving it back into the general forum because I agree: It's more about MS than specifically XP.

[traveler]

Thank you for your compliment, SubZero.

And thank you to defender for informing us that the Micro$oft monopolistic muscle is starting to flex. Does any one here want to send a monthly check to M$?

Each month the electric company sends power to our homes from a long distance away. Each month the telephone company sends our voice and data to and from a long distance away. Tha cable tv company likewise. They are utility companies and rightfully receive our monthly checks for their continuing service. A new magazine arrives each month with new information. That is a true subscription. But operating system software? That is a stand alone product and any future updates, if needed, are nothing more than warranty work to fix a product that was not thoroughly or completely built right. (No blame as long as the warranty work is done.)

I hope defender provides us with more information about the Austratia situation with xp.

Originally posted by defender
Your next OS - - A SUBSCRIPTION SERVICE??

Some believe that (among other things) Micro$oft's final goal with XP (and it's successors) will be to implement a subscription-based operating system service.

In a nutshell, once XP clocks a certain duration on your PC, the "activation" process will be initiated to continue using the OS on your PC!

HINT: This ALREADY is occurring in Australia.

This, and other fun stuff on an XP machine coming your way, can be found in this excellent article:

"If Microsoft moves Windows XP to a subscription-based platform for consumers, this, combined with (product activation), can give Microsoft the capability of remotely shutting down your computer as easy as the electric company can shut off your electricity," Jagielski said. "If you don't pay your bill, you can't use your computer."

For more>>>

Microsoft's XP: Hardware changes a turnoff

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6387054.html

What do you think about that?

[patentman]

Originally posted by traveler
...Micro$oft monopolistic muscle is starting to flex. Does any one here want to send a monthly check to M$?

They are utility companies and rightfully receive our monthly checks for their continuing service. A new magazine arrives each month with new information. That is a true subscription. But operating system software? That is a stand alone product and any future updates, if needed, are nothing more than warranty work to fix a product that was not thoroughly or completely built right. (No blame as long as the warranty work is done.)

What do you think about that?

Well that`s why I had posted about ownership of the right to use something you`ve paid for and that is not depended on use of services.(My English is not good,but I think you get the point).That is surely a stand alone product as a refridgerator or other stuff.Pay for it,use it until goes dead.If M$$ new marketing policy tends to get into leasing or hiring a software then I won`t follow.
If that monopolistic status spread to H/W then imagine what will happen.PCs will be converted to coin machines and user will be addicted to everyday`s routine (saving money for his "honey"),so the "company" gets more powerfull.
And here in Greece,if you own something (whatever) then you do protect your right until you die!Hope this is a common idea.
All I`m saying this,is to feel sure that this activation is just another silly protection and not the first step to fully M$$ domination.
At the rest part of older M$ policy and its monopolistic status,I have to say that if someone other was so deep in marketing then for sure M$ wouldn`t be alone.

[patentman]

BTW there was a day that M$ "allowed" copying their stuff,just to make every user in the planet know nothing but WINdows.
That time has pasted ago-right now M$ is the #1-and start thinking about the future.

I`m not supporting copying nor stealing.MS has the right to protect their rights as we have.

[traveler]

Originally posted by patentman
BTW there was a day that M$ "allowed" copying their stuff,just to make every user in the planet know nothing but WINdows.
That time has pasted ago-right now M$ is the #1-and start thinking about the future.

I`m not supporting copying nor stealing.MS has the right to protect their rights as we have.

Back in the "old" days, that was one of M$ methods of marketing and gaining market penetration. The money to M$ was made on the sale of the next upgrade which indeed did have real improvements and real added features. Today, however, upgrades do not offer much more than the previous version. Today, Windows 98 second edition and Office 97 are incredably popular. Is there much else needed beyond these versions?

[SubZero]

You are right but it's not always a matter of choice. E.g. companies decide to migrate to a certain platform... W2K+Office 2K... more companies follow.... it's like an upgrade wave (globally)... Whether we want it or not, we are soon to follow. Only the persistent onces stay with their older OS and hardware.

If you are a gamer, you're even more influenced by this upgrade wave both with hardware and software. Requirements for games change so drasticly every time that running outdated hard- and software is simply impossible to get a decent fps. I think the gaming industry is mostly responsible for this 'hardware push'.

If you are a business user and do a lot of work at home you're soon to follow also since you don't want to go thru the hassle of converting stuff every single time.

But hey, I agree... I think I could last a long time with my current W2K+Office 2K rig..... Until Unreal Tournament 3 or Visual Basic 8 or something comes out and pops up new requirements...

Originally posted by traveler


Back in the "old" days, that was one of M$ methods of marketing and gaining market penetration. The money to M$ was made on the sale of the next upgrade which indeed did have real improvements and real added features. Today, however, upgrades do not offer much more than the previous version. Today, Windows 98 second edition and Office 97 are incredably popular. Is there much else needed beyond these versions?

[tamarelle]

Originally posted by traveler


Back in the "old" days, that was one of M$ methods of marketing and gaining market penetration. The money to M$ was made on the sale of the next upgrade which indeed did have real improvements and real added features. Today, however, upgrades do not offer much more than the previous version. Today, Windows 98 second edition and Office 97 are incredably popular. Is there much else needed beyond these versions?

Traveller there is a HUGE difference between Windows 98 and even Windows 2000, and especially Windows 98 and Windows XP. When I play on my friends computers that use Wndows 98, it feels positively ANCIENT compared to XP, and the functionality and stability are NOT THERE. Especially the stability. If the power goes off when you're using Windows 98, what happens? Twenty minutes of SCANDISK and corrupted Windows files, at the very least. Sometimes much worse.

If the power goes off when you using Windows XP, what happens? You reboot and you are back up running without a single system error in less than 30 seconds.

Tam

[BladeRunner_abx]

The biggest issue here is the theft of software.
Nobody is forcing you to upgrade your OS, that is why we still have people using Win95 now.
If you want to use USB then yes, you are forced to use Win98, but you're not being forced to use a USB device.

Nobody is forcing you to upgrade anything, on a corporate network I could, if I wanted, have an NT 3.51 server, MS wouldn't phone me up and tell me that I wont be able to use the server in a months time.
So then we move onto WinXP.
The general line of comment goes:

"How dare MS add this feature, well screw them, I wont buy it"
Quickly followed by
"So, anybody know where to download a cracked version of WinXP RC1?"

What gives people the right to steal this software?
If you don't like WinXP, if you don't like PA then there is one very simple and legal answer - you don't buy it nor do you download it for free.
You simply stick with your current OS and don't upgrade, there are no guns being held to peoples heads here.

But that's not how it works is it?
The majority of people it would seem want the latest & greatest, but don't think they should have to pay for it.
Is this any different to popping into your local shops and stealing items off the shelf?
No, no difference at all, it's still theft, you are still taking something which you are not entitled to take.
"Should a poor starving man be jailed for stealing bread for his family?"
Not a valid argument, you already have an OS on your system, it's not as if you are 'starving for an OS'.

A lot of development work went into WinXP.
It could be argued that WinXP is going to be what Win2k was supposed to be - it needs to be remembered that Win2k for a long time was going to be the 'bridging' product hence the name Win2k and not the original NT5.
You can attempt to justify the theft of WinXP as much as you like.
You can tell me that it's just a faceless corporation your stealing from (as are most high-street stores / car manufacturers).
You can tell me it's too expensive.
I wont listen to these arguments because the simple fact remains - if you want something in this world you have to work for it, you have to pay for it.
There are free alternatives out there, take a look at those if you don't want to spend money on something like an OS.
The bottom line is that WinXP is MS's baby, they designed it, they wrote it, they can do what the hell they like with it.
You want to be a part of it, you want to use it, then spend the £75 to upgrade from Win2k or the £100 to upgrade from Win9x - you want to uise it then pay for it.

[pointreyes]

Originally posted by tamarelle
Hey Pointreyes:

I guess I am lucky But all the same, I sure hope I did not offend you! I was stating all the things that I like about Windows XP, but I am not an expert like you

But NO OS is worth alienating friends, so if my Hard Sell of Windows XP annoyed you I MOST HUMBLY APOLOGIZE ..

I'm sure it didn't, you're much too nice a guy I know. But just in case

Cheers!!

Tam

Finally back from vacation and just now remember to check this link.

No annoyance at you Tam, just at the problem I have been having with XP beta2. No need to apologize. Finally started to play around with XP RC1, and finally my USB printer was recognized but not my USB Scanner - only ME automatically recognizes the scanner.

For my kids, Elmo Reading is so far doing much better in RC1. However Peter Rabbit's Garden locks up even though it was installed and ran as Windows 95 comp. This means that I'm probably stuck with ME if XP comp. problem is not fixed for the older Windows 95 based games. Good grief, I might have to install Windows 98 just for Petter Rabbit because ME eventually crashes from PRG.

Oddly, SQL Server 7 has a strange problem in XP. I can only upgrade the software by copying the SP3 files to hdd .
In Windows 2000, I can install SP3 from the CD. The OSes are on the same computer so hardware is not the issue. Anixous for my next issue of VBPJ because I think I heard that MS is including VS.NET beta2 with the mag. VS.NET beta2 is listed as can be installed on XP!

Again no hard feelings.

[traveler]

The biggest issue with PA that I believe has the dander up is:

Many people have two, three and more computers (desktop, laptop, one somewhere else, etc.). One copy of the OS for one computer I believe is the license. Only one computer can be used by a person at a time. Uninstall on the desktop, install on the laptop; visa-versa; repeat, repeat, repeat. This, of course, complies with the license, but what a hassle.

Practically speaking, now, people will install XP on all the machines and when it comes to getting the "next" installation approval PA code will "retire" or "revert" the "other" computer. I am sure that many people will come up with many methods to circumvent what the PA was intended to do.

Probable outcome: The software pirates will have their hassle free version, everyone else will still install their new copy of XP on their two or three machines, and M$ will push for the subscription basis OS and/or imbed an insidious internet "Big Brother" check up routine into future copies of any OS (random OS checks over the internet).

(Has anyone installed a Western Digital hard drive lately? It "phones home" and gives no notification that it is connecting your computer to the server at Western Digital.)

[patentman]

I liked that "BigBrother" comment It`s about like that the hole story.
This new operating system is the first time that sounds good from so many people and is the first that is so much loved & hated by users.
Time will show.

[BladeRunner_abx]

Well that's just it.
As with everything in life it is the criminals and those that feel they are entitled to things for free who ruin things for everybody else.
Do you think MS would have bothered with PA at all if criminals weren't ripping the big software houses off for billions each year?
I don't want you to put your paranoid hat on here, I'm saying think about it logically.
PA took time and money to develop, that could have been saved.

99% of criminals are scum, thieves rate as some of the worst, just because they think it's OK to rip off a faceless corporation, those people who purchase software get the hassle.

Don't be suprised if MS moves totally over to subscription.
Hell, don't be suprised if 'Blackcomb' ships with a hardware dongle.