And what do you think about calling Uncle Bill @ M$ for permission to install?

[traveler]

XP this and XP that.

But everytime you change your hardware or do another clean install or reinstall, Uncle Bill wants to know or he won't let you use his new XP software.

I must admit, I reinstalled win98se (clean reinstalls) on this system a few times in the beginning stages of construction. It was easy then and probably cured some early problems. But to ask Uncle Bill each time by phone or over the internet for permission? I don't want to be on hold or have a server down problem. I want my software installed and get on with the next thing. And what if he doesn't like me installing it into three or four "similiar" machines in one day?

What do you think about this XP installation thing?

[CYCLOPS]

Looks like I'll be using ME until it dies of old age! Of course the "hack and crack" crowd will provide a solution before XP ever hits the shelves. Now matter how tight they build the security someone will break it down and find a way around it.
From the looks of Office XP it won't be much to get excited about anyway. Office isn't that much different or improved over Office '97. Loaded with bugs and quirks and stuff that just won't work.
All the new wizards and help features are plain annoying and just create more work turning off or navigating around. If WinXP is as annoying, I don't want it!

[Jacobite]

We have just watched court cases and appeals from various software companies against MS, and I must say that initially I supported MS for their initiatives and abilities. I agree that they have released buggy goods etc. However in saying that, I have always supported success.
This latest attempt to "prevent" piracy by controlling the licensing of the operating system will in my opinion work against them as the masses begin to see that it really is an excuse to increase profit.........and we know that Bill needs more money. It eally is the implementation of a monopoly.

I think the concept of licenses for sale objectionable.......you pay your money and you should own the goods. Can you imagine if your house ao car was sold to you on this basis ?

I think that as alternative and cheaper open source os's are developed and become easier to use and more compatible, more and more people will migrate to them. Unfortunately we need 3rd party developer support and software development.

In conclusion........hopefully viable alternatives to ms will take hold and force ms to rethink it's postion...until then their actions will only generate a larger black market and a greater attempt by hackers and crackers to break the registration process.

Sorry if this post is rambling as I just woke up and the brain is still somewhere else...........

[BladeRunner_abx]

I'm afraid like so many people you haven't gotten the full story on PA (Product Activation).
As a beta tester for WinXP (I'm not talking general 'download' beta's, I have a copy of WinXP Alpha here) maybe I can enlighten you as to how 'roughly' it will work.
I say 'roughly' because the final way activation will work is still being talked about, even RC1's is probably not how the final product activation will look/work.

1. Why should I have to register my software?, I don't want Microsoft knowing my name.

You don't have to register your product, registration & product activation are two different things.
During product activation the only question you will be asked is 'which country did you purchase this copy of WinXP from?'
If you want to go an to register your product for support reasons then that is your choice - you are not being forced here.

2. So I have to contact Microsoft every time I want to install my OS?

No, you only need to contact Microsoft via either the web or phone when you want to activate your product.
WinXP will run for 30 days without the need to activate it, so those people who argue 'But I re-install my OS every month' need not worry, chances are you'll never, ever activate your product.

3. But I've only got a limited amount of 'Over the Internet' activations then I'm forced to phone up.

This is correct, but the final number of Internet registrations has yet to be finalised.
The question here really has to be, why are you re-installing your OS so often?
WinXP is largely based on Win2k (So much so in fact that a lot of Win2k users simply wont bother with the upgrade).
Win2k is a very stable OS and simply doesn't need re-installing every month or every other month.
At home for example, I've been using the final gold code of Win2k since release day, that's 18 months and in that time I've installed the OS twice, once in the beginning and once after a HD crash.
Sure, hardware fails, that's why there are a number of 'registration over the Internet' slots, but come on people, if you need to re-install your OS every other month don't buy XP - cause either your PC isn't up to it, or your doing something really, really stupid.

4. After any hardware changes I have to re-activate, what if I replace my mouse?

Again it hasn't been finalised as to what kind of hardware upgrade will need to be made before a re-activation is triggered.
From personal testing with Beta2 & RC1 I have replaced the following items:

ATI Graphics Card replaced with Matrox
PIII 866CPU replaced with 1Ghz CPU
128MB RAM removed 2x 256MB Modules added
Kingston NIC removed replaced with Intel NIC

All these changes were made at the same time and a re-activation was not triggered.
If however I'd gone for a motherboard, CPU & RAM then I'm guessing that would require a re-activation.
But this is taken into account by the number of 'over the internet' activations you have, again can you honestly tell me you replace motherboard, CPU & RAM all at the same time more often than say every six months?

5. I don't want Microsoft to know what hardware I've got

Well that's your call I guess, don't really see how that would be a problem - oh no, MS know I'm using a Creative Labs soundcard, quickly burn it.
MS don't know what hardware you have, when WinXP is installed your hardware is analised and given a 'score'.
Certain upgrades (or downgrades) will either add or remove points from this score.
Should tollerance be exceeded (Don't know exactly what would be needed to exceed this, see above) then re-activation is triggered.

6. But I want to install my copy of XP on all my home PC's

Read your license agreement.
The minute you install that software you have agreed to it.
The purchase of one copy of WinXP entitles you to install it on any one PC and one PC alone.
It isn't a site license, it isn't a home license, it is a license for one machine.
You can argue about that as much as you like, but that is the fact.
It doesn't matter if only one PC is ever switched on at any one time, that kind of MS license vanished years ago.

7. Fine, I'll either just crack my copy of the OS or download me a copy for free!

That's your call and nobody on earth is really going to be able to stop you.
All that can be said is that kind of attitude is why product activation was thought of in the first place.
If people didn't steal then PA wouldn't be needed.
What you are supporting is theft, you can justify it as much as you like but it is simply theft.
Theft from a faceless multi-national is still theft.
Did you know that a lot of the major 'software pirating outfits' are also into other activities such as organised crime, drugs and prostitution?
That might sound a little 'over the top' or dramatic, but it's true.

All in all product activation will not effect many people.
A WinXP installation will last literally for years without the need of a re-install.
Hardware upgrades will always happen, hence the 'number of Internet activations' allowed.
Even those that regular as clockwork re-install their OS (why??) wont be hit as they'll probably never get past the 30 days of 'free time'.
The whole idea of PA has been very much blown out of proportion.
It isn't a spying device, it doesn't compromise security.
The only people who can complain about this is somebody who has never copied, stolen or liberatted software before in their lives - the honest computer user.
Raise your hand if you fit into that category - not many hands raised I see.

<Edit>
I forgot to add this small snippet at the end of my post.

If you do decide to go ahead and 'crack' the OS or simply use a pirate version, all I can say is be carefull.
Most people feel that any major update, patch and/or Service Pack for WinXP will disable the currently cirulating cracks & hacks.
What does this mean?
Well, in the long term nothing, if you're hell-bent on piracy or theft then eventually (probably in a matter of days) a new hack will be written that gets around this.
However, if you have a fully installed OS (Non legit) and then install WinXP SP1 what you might find is an OS that boots and then immediately says 'Please activate your OS' and not allow you to do such things as copy files off etc.
You might find that the only way of getting an upto date version of XP that's cracked will be to re-install after each major patch or SP or not even be able to use a SP'ed version.

[cryogen_abx]

good post, and good points BladeRunner
if you did a search in this forum, you wouls probably find some of my posts slamming XP, and everything it stands for.
i did fall for the initial hub-bub, then read some more, and realized how it werks. i still disagree tho....
its not as bad as ppl have been saying, but that seems to be relative..i have read 2-3 articles already about ppl copies, stopping on them..just like that...cnet had an article, and zdnet i think, i dont have the links sorry
and no cracks about the news sources hehe
i tend to agree with jacobites view.
if you buy something, you should own it.
if M$ advertises their SW as 'rental' or 'lease'-ware, then they can do as they wish.
but if i buy a product, i expect to be able to use it.
imho, its not worth it.
the sad part is that the majority of the ppl who end up ith the Os, will be the moms and pops...who just buy a brand new dell, or gateway..they'll be stuck with it, and when, ok, if, it dies will not have a clue.
anyone who understands the process, and the issues would be crazy to use the os imho...
2k rocks...it stays putt on my box.
just my 0.02c
cryogen

[TeeDeck]

I agree with both Cryogen and BladeRunner (excellent reply, very informative). I'm still using 98SE for now but will be making the jump to 2K and dump 98SE as soon as i feel comfortable knowing the OS in detail.

You say it correct Cryogen that it will be the moms and the pops that will pay dearly for this as they are not aware or knowledgeable about the ins and outs of XP. I do feel sorry for the general public, but there is basically nothing anyone can do. Politics and corporate business is a concept only for the greedy as far as i'm concerned.

My 2 cents (1/2 penny in Canada)

[StarTraveller]

Excellent post, BladeRunner!

Thanks for explaining the issue in depth. You just earned this thread five stars .

I still don't like the way PA works, though.

Perhaps you can help me out regarding an issue that's been on my mind for some time. Do you know how WinXP reacts if an image is multicasted to multiple similar machines? Would each machine need to be activated individually?

Because if that's the case, then MS is really shooting itself in the foot. No companies with some degree of automatic distributed installation methods would want to upgrade to WinXP then. Or perhaps some corporate edition of WinXP would take care of this issue?


- StarTraveller

[Solomon_abx]

I do not like the XP activation feature. I will hold out from buying XP as long as possible. I LOVE Win2K and plan to use it for some time to come. Bladerunner, I fully agree with your statements as to cracking XP. It is plain wrong, and anyone that tries to justify it is just kidding themselves.

Having said the above, the XP activation feature is NOT the main reason I will not upgrade, I am just not compelled to at this point.
I think we will have to accept that the way software is delivered to the customer is going to change over time.

[BladeRunner_abx]

StarTraveller,
Well, to answer your question also answers another question.

How come pirate versions will be available if you have to activate them?

If you use corporate licenses then you'll be able to purchase a copy of WinXP that doesn't require activation.
As you said, it would be an administrative nightmare if a company had to individually activate every single copy of WinXP (I should know, I'm a Systems Administrator by trade )
So, the 'corporate edition' of WinXP wont need to be activated.
This unfortunately is how the majority of pirate downloads will work - download your corporate edition here.

Rumour Alert!!!
There was a rumour flying around that all corporate editions of WinXP would be traceable.
IE - With a little help from license re-sellers, Microsoft would be able to find out exactly who a corporate edition WinXP CD was sold to.
If said product appeared as a download (Microsoft do find out about these downloads) then they would be able to question the company and say 'Hay, you were sold that copy of WinXP, how come it's available for free download?'

Personally I can't see this happening or really being a possibility.
MS will send gold code to manufacturing to be duplicated many, many times, they wont want to be making differences to every corporate edition - unless there will be so few in circulation!

A lot of companies wont upgrade to WinXP from Win2k.
At work my Win2k AD Domain has only been live for about 12 months, it will be another 2 years before I'm looking to upgrade the OS's on workstations and servers - all new workstations I buy will be Win2k for as long as it's still available.

Another question that appears is:
Does this mean support for Win2k will cease?
Well, I'm in no way employed by Microsoft, but my guess is no.
WinNT 4 is only just coming to the end of it's life and that's been out for 6 years.
As I said above most companies who moved over to Win2k wont be upgrading to WinXP for at least another two years (By then of course WinXP will be replaced by Blackcomb).
We will see a Win2k SP3 and I wouldn't be suprised if we saw a SP4 as well - just to clean things up.

[StarTraveller]

BladeRunner,
That makes a lot of sense . I haven't had the need to check out all these issues myself so I'm delighted that you're willing to share the fruits of YOUR hard labour .

I had heard something about a corporate edition being released side-by-side with the home edition. MS must be thrilled that they finally get to sell the same OS to all market segments. I mean, why make two products if one can cover the entire market just fine .

I also think you're correct to say that many companies won't be upgrading their Win2K licenses. I think it's quite common that companies skip every other OS release, so WinXP would probably be mostly for those who have Win98 or WinNT4 installed at the moment.

Excellent. One thread has resolved most of my issues regarding WinXP .

Next step would be to see if I can get my hands on a RC and check it out myself. I'm thinking that I could try it out on my laptop and see if it's worth the upgrade from Win2K.


- StarTraveller

[robowang]

Bladerunner
Maybe I am wrong, but this post appears to very strongly support MS's ideas on thier future products. You have the right to do this. I also have a right to disagree. I STRONGLY disagree with MS's heavy handed approach. Only a monopoly (dictator Bill in the future?), confident in it's power would attempt this madness.
We will go by the numbers.

1. I have read this several places and do hope that it is true, I 'm not taking bets on it tho (do you get the feeling I don't trust MS?).

2. So, re-installing the OS every 29 days would keep me from contacting the activation department/server? That's not so bad.

3. If the number of registrations have not been set yet, then why are you trying to answer this. You certainly don't have the answer, and we are still left with the same question.
And why is the real question "Why I am reinstalling the OS so frequently?" Isn't that my business (there are many reasons why, you just have to be in that person's shoes). And isn't the privacy issue the sore point for this activation thing?
Where does this "really, really stupid" reference come from (did you read it somewhere?) I would construe this to be a statement from a person who works in a computer orientated environment that has forgotten what it was like to say "Uh, command prompt, whats that?" The point is, who has the right to judge anyone that wants/needs to install OS/components frequently (like hardware testers). You? Microsoft?

4. Yes, I do change everything in a six month period. Why does that seem odd? This is a hobby, as well as a working "thing" for me. And the thing is, a lot people that read this forum either do the same, or, if they are new to this, are planning on doing the same. It is nothing, with the way computer technology is going, to replace every component in your box as they become obsolete in SIX months. Computer based businesses (INCLUDING MS)WANT this to happen.
And again, the number of changes has not been set, could be 2 (bad), could be 50 (better),so whats your point?

5. The problem, again, comes in the privacy issue. Can you really tell me how the hardware info is given to MS? Have you actually had anything to do with writing the code. Or is this information something you were told by an MS representative?

6. If you want to use the product, you have to agree with the license provisions. My problem with this is some one who is un-educated in these matters and has a trusting nature is getting the short end here. He buys the software for $xxx.xx, takes it home, reformats his drives, starts the install, comes to the license agreement screen, scrolls down 200 lines and then will either

a. Not understand it, get nervous, stop the install, then goes to an attorney because they are the only people who does understand the jargon. (joke) Seriously, does MS really think every one can read "legalnese"?
b. Not understand it and trusts that it's all up and up, accepts it and goes on, not really knowing what he has agreed to. Then when the activation glitchs (it's going to happen folks), or he changes some hardware, he spends a couple of days on the phone getting the oS re-activated. It's bad enough being on the tech support line with a hardware issue, but an Operating System?
c. Understands it, blows it off, installs, see above.
d. Understands it, decides the whole thing sux, takes the software back and looks for alternative means.
e. I am sure the smart people that we have read this forum can come up with more scenarios. And all of them would be valid to the person it happened to.

7. Hey, I do agree with this one.


The excuse that there will only be a hand full of these problems don't wash. I feel that if even one person gets ripped in the process, it just ain't ready for prime time. Of course, I may just be too sensitive to other peoples feelings.


I believe the real answer to is do what a lot of people are saying now. Stay with the OS you have and don't buy what you don't like. Just common sense. The only thing I would add to that is, start learning an alternative OS (linux, etc). Put your support behind that OS, and help to make it better with your feedback to the developers. Do this, and in a couple years, there will be a viable alternative to MS. Don't take an alternative path (the dark side) and you won't have a gripe at anything that MS, or any other business that uses the same tactics, throws at you.

So says the prophet robowang!
IMHO, of course.

[Guntro]

Very well spoken robowang! IMHO M$ should discard this activation idea very quickly or they will lose some costumers at the end. And that will mostly be the people who are knowing their way around a computer and have enough knowledge to try another OS like Linux.

I'm sure that I won't upgrade to WinXP. On the one hand I already have Win2k and on the other, I'm familiar with Linux. Since the 2.4.3 Linux kernel came out it became even more an alternative to Windows, because the first time USB devices (like ZIP drives, Printers, etc.), ATA 100 and FireWire are really supported without bigger problems (I recommend for every Linux starter Mandrake 8.0; Very good to start with, almost as easy to use as Windows 98 but has more features than Win2k and you get 7 CD's with over 2,500 programs for circa 70 $!).

[Edit]
Who said that the Windows Product Activation (WPA) will be cracked? Who ever it was, you have been soooo right! Interesting read about WinXP RC1 (which has been released only a few days before):
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/20433.html

[BladeRunner_abx]

I can't say I am in support of Product Activation.
As somebody who doesn't and never has stolen software before, I feel that it's me who is getting some form of hassle, even though my PC's have always been legit.
Why is it such madness?
Just take a look through any forum, probably this one included.
You will see such questions as:

'I tried to install Quake3 on my Win2k Advanced Server Edition.....'
or
'I'm sharing my DSL connection at home, I have Win2k Server on one machine......'

Do you honestly think those people purchased the said product?
Highly unlikely, quite simply the software was stolen.
As a high majority of software theft is done by friends lending CD's, borrowing CD's from work etc then the idea of PA is sound.
Why do you think large CAD companies require you to use hardware 'dongles'?
Because to be quite frank they don't want their product stolen - don't be suprised if future MS OS's require hardware locks.
Just a little background information on who I am.
I've been in the computer industry for almost 8 years (Since I was 18).
I currently work as a Systems Administrator for a communications company here in the UK.
After being accepted onto the Windows 95 beta test (The earliest version I saw was an Alpha build on some 35 floppy disks) and then went onto beta test Win2k (Earliest build was WinNT 5 Alpha 755) and am now doing WinXP.


I can confirm with you now, Microsoft do not require you to register your software, you are not required to enter your name or any such information, but you will be asked which county you purchased the software in.

As the software only requires you to activate it after 30 days then yes, removing WinXP and re-installing it every 29 days would result in you never having to activate it.
Re-installing the OS over the top would not allow you to get around this.

At the moment nobody knows the exact numbers of times that Internet Activation can be used.
Chances are that even after it gets it's public release people still wont know.
All sources say that MS will keep this information private.
I'm sure somebody will go out of their way to be forced to phone soon after installation just to see how many times it takes and then the information will be public, but as a beta tester I am not privvy to that kind of information - I'm pretty sure only people actually working on the code would be.
I stand by the statement - why do you need to re-install the OS so frequently?
Once it was decided that PA would be used, it had to be designed in such a way to hurt as few people as possible.
If it had been decided that Internet PA could only be used 1 or 2 times then everybody would have been hurt, however the currently expected number of 8 wont.
No, I didn't read 'Really, really stupid' anywhere, I know this from personal experience.
WinXP is 90% Win2k.
Win2k, you install it once and that's it, even after hardware upgrades you do not need to re-install the OS.
As I said, my home PC has been running Win2k for 18 months and it that time has had the OS installed twice, once at the very beginning, once after a HD failure - it is still as stable and as fast as it was 18 months ago.
Unless you are doing something really 'stupid' then WinXP will be an install once and never have to install again Operating System.

With regards to how often you replace 'everything' inside your PC yes you are in the minority.
Most users cannot afford to purchase a new Motherboard, RAM & CPU every other month.
Even those that like to stay on the cutting edge of hardware can only afford to replace all 3 items every six months.
Using the 6 months as a base for hardware changes and assuming that triggers an Internet activation - with 8 activations you've got enough 'automatic' activations for 4 years.
Considering Blackcomb (The true successor to Win2k) is only 2 years away this is plenty of automatic activations.
People do not replace their hardware that often, people can't afford to do it and if you are in the position where every three months you can go out and purchase a new MB, RAM & CPU then hats off to you, because I don't know anybody who can afford to do that or really wants to.

No I haven't had anything to do with writing the code, as I've said before I am not emplyed by Microsoft.
However, assuming your paranoia is correct and MS did find out exactly whaty make all the hardware devices in your computer were, even down to the firmware revisions.
How exactly could that be used against you?
Also what makes you think it's only MS that would do this?
The information I have recieved is that your computer is simply 'scored' when XP is installed, upgrades or downgrades will result in the score changing when if a certain tollerance level is exceeded will prompt you for re-activation.
I didn't code it, I wouldn't stake my life or the life of my family on it, however if I'm going to be paranoid about MS 'wanting' to find out all about my hardware why stop there?
I'd disconnect my PC from the net and never visit another web site ever again, as they could also be trying to find out the same information.
MS are not in the hardware business (Except for keyboards & mice) they gain nothing by knowing what hardware you have, so why bother holding so much information?
It's a waste of time & space - so in my opinion they don't need to know nor will they bother finding out - unless of course you make a support call to them.

Of course you should read the full license agreement.
Would you sign a piece of paper without first reading through the whole thing?
Seriously, if you don't understand everything on the agreement take it to somebody who does - make sure you are aware of what you are getting in to.
However the one part of the license agreement I was on about is as clear as day - in as many words you are entitled to install your purchased software on any one single PC.
There is no two ways of reading this and if you want to install a single copy on 2 or more PC's then you are breaking the license agreement you agreed with.

The simplest argument here is as follows:
You don't like PA - stick with your current OS.
You don't like MS - go and get yourself LINUX

Why do people think they have the right to rip off an OS if they don't agree with everything included in it?
What gives you the right to say what you will or will not do with an OS?
The only right you have got is to simply not purchase the product.
If you consider LINUX an alternative then go out there and use it.
People who sit on their 'moral high ground' (Not aimed at the person I'm mainly replying too) and say 'I don't agree with PA so I'm going to rip off the software instead' make me sick, sick to the core.
Your going against fundemental laws that we should all stick by - You will not steal.
You don't like MS or PA then go and use LINUX - that is the only right you have.

[robowang]

"Why is it such madness?"
I think you have missed the point here. Do you really think that it is the piracy issue that is driving this activation thing? There are over 200 million computers active in the world today. 150 million are using MS. How many people are using a pirated version of MS.
From the statistics about .5%. OK, make it 1%. Now, how many of these people will stop using pirated versions when the activation versions are predominate. Still won't be more than 1%. But not too much less, either. There are already cracks for the beta versions of the XP softwares on the web. The people who feel comfortable stealing software are going to continue to steal software.
Of course MS is in the hardware business. I am using an MS optical mouse as I write this. Plus, how many hardware companies does MS have a piece of, but their name just isn't on the front cover. But even if they are not DIRECTLY heavy into hardware production, thay are certainly in bed with the big manufacturer's of hardware (MS OS's are optimized for INTEL chipsets!), and what does software actually do if not control the hardware in some manner.
No, I believe that the main force driving this bus is information. In the technology/business world, information is power. Knowing what hardware is in 200 million machines in the world would be priceless. Even your email, where you live (county?), age, etc can be used for profit without your permission. That type of piracy is one heck of a lot more damaging to us and our way of life than all the software pirating put together.
Again, I say it's a privacy issue. And I am very concerned that a company like MS is attempting to get by with this. MS has a history of trying little tactics to get into peoples lives a chip at a time. They have been caught, admitted it, and have settled on several occasions, but how much have they done that hasn't been noticed, yet.
There are already 100's of horror stories about the activation glitches. PC Magazine had an article about loss of Office XP usage three months ago. And there is a very small percentage of the XP stuff out there right now, wait 'til it's on half the OEM machines built by the end of the year. It's going to be a nightmare. Not for me tho, you can count on that. But, we will all know someone that will have it. Let the show begin. Or the nightmare, depending on whether it's you or not.
Add up all the above, and all the other things that can be said on the subject (but there isn't enough bandwidth for this forum to put it down), and this is where the "madnes" comes in.

"Do you honestly think those people purchased the said product?
"
How do you know someone hasn't bought the product. As stated above, the statistics published (only way for the average person to get this kind of info) shows way, way less of this going on than the HYPE. Most software piracy is done by a group that is a minority, compared to the mom and pop group of computer owners/users that just use what they buy in an OEM machine. This HYPE is propagated by the big software companies (MS maybe?).
Again, what business is it of anyone how many times I install the OS? Maybe I just like doing it. Maybe I am testing hardware to see what will work best in the next super machine I am going to build, and need a clean system to be sure, etc. My thought is that if I paid $249.00 for XOS, as long as I keep it on one machine, I should be able to install it as much as I want, for as long as I want. Maybe I have missed something in the last few years and the word "purchase' now has a different meaning in the dictionary. As to just having the right to use or not use the OS, you MAY (explained below) be legally right. But, morally, it's a different story. MS is virtually a monopoly. They know that main group thay will sell to (mom and pop, the same group that ISN'T pirating software, the same group that is, on the whole, computer illiterate, is their bread and butter), will have to use the OS, as they know nothing else. To take advantage of this type of situation is morally wrong, and if I am not mistaken, may even be legally wrong due to the anti-monopoly laws paseed earlier in this century. We'll see.
The number of activations are still unknown. Even that would not be a real issue, if the software is perfect. The trouble is, perfect software is as rare as hens teeth. Add in the extra hassles of a system that requires you to be on the internet or on the phone to activate it (believe it or not, there are people that have neither, are they to be judged unworthy, also?).
Welcome to the the madness zone.

[StarTraveller]

It's great to see that two people who disagree so much with each other can conduct a passionate yet civil discussion. I take my hat off for both of you .

I don't think I've ever seen a thread with so many extremely long posts before either! Any of you hit the 10K characters max limit yet? LOL

Anyway, back on topic. Let's not forget that people has the option to buy WinXP without the PA feature. If someone really wants to avoid it he could buy the corporate edition. It might cost $100 more, but the option is there.

Of course this won't be the version installed on countless OEM systems, but maybe MS could make something smart here to avoid using PA (surely, they would like to avoid several million product activations if possible). Many brand name computers come with CDs that can reestablish the computer to what it looked like at purchase. Because it's not really possible to use these CDs with computers which are not the same make and model the PA feature wouldn't really be needed... They would only need to protect the true WinXP CDs with the PA feature.

About the privacy issue. I think that we have to start getting used to being snooped on. I'm not saying that we should accept it! But we should get used to it. Maybe by acting like we're always under surveillance we avoid exposing ourselves as much. And believe me - we're all going to be snooped on sometime. If not by MS, then by some other company or even by people hacking into your computer. On that new PC mom and pop got with WinXP and DSL which of the two do you think poses the greatest risk of exposure ... even though WinXP comes with a built-in firewall (BTW, is the built-in FW good for anything or is just for show?).

I agree with robowang that knowledge is power. Knowing the hardware configurations of millions of machines would indeed be valuable info (and just imagine when this get paired with the countless registrations they also receive! Priceless!!) and even though MS says that your hardware is only "scored" I don't really trust them enough to believe that. I would want to see the actual code before I believe that - and we all know that's not going to happen (unless some unscrupulous person reverse engineers the thing of course ).

I don't think that people wanting to install Q3 on a Win2K Advanced Server purchaced that version of the OS. It's purely intended for servers and priced as such - as a student my wallet hurts when I just look at the price . I don't mind admitting that I played around with Win2K AS without owning a license for it, but how else would I learn about the OS enough to be able to recommend it for people who would actually want to buy it - and it's not like I'm exploiting it for profit ... I would call it an "educational evaluation" license .

Finally, I've got a question regarding licenses. I thought that if I purchased a copy of Windows then I would be allowed to install it on both my workstation and laptop?

There you go ... another long post to put this thread the record book .


- StarTraveller