DOS problem

[young87]

A friend, with a very ancient computer, asked me to help with a crash. She has a 5 1/4" floppy disk labeled "DOS 5.0 Boot Disk". My knowledge of DOS is extremely limited, and the only thing I can get is, "A>". I think that is just the fact that the A drive is active and not the A prompt which I believe should be "A:/>", but every command I could think of resulted in "Invalid...." . Not being able to get any further, I am not even sure of what the OS is. I would assume, from someone creating a DOS 5.0 boot disk, that the OS may be 3.1 ??? Could some of you old timers give me a clue of what command to type at "A>" to get moving on. I think if I can get to the A prompt, I can then get to the C prompt and hopefully see what the heck might be going on. I did a detailed Google search but found nothing that helped. Please accept my appreciation in advance for any help.

[KingTermite]

I still don't understand what you are trying to do. Just get to the C:\ prompt?

Depending on how the computer was set up, in the old DOS days you could make your prompt look how you wanted, so it probably IS your a prompt. If it bothers you and you are used to seeing it the other way, try typing prompt $P$G.

To get to the C:\ drive, just type it c:.

[KingTermite]

You can also get bootdisks, for Dr Dos and Win95 DOS from here if that bootdisk is goofy.
http://www.bootdisk.com/

[Monkey Hanger]

In DOS 5 you have to use the prompt command to change it from the default c:.
From memory this would be "prompt $p$g". The $p sets the "path" and the $g the ">" sign.

How are you booting the machine? With the 5.25 floppy? Is it a twin floppy machine? Does it have a hard drive?

Is the boot floppy disk a 360kb or 1.2Mb disk?

With a 5.25 drive it may not be higher than a 80286 processor.

If you change to the c: drive (if there is one) and type "ver" it will tell you the OS. (NO quotes of course).

[Mark_Venture]

Originally Posted by young87

...She has a 5 1/4" floppy disk labeled "DOS 5.0 Boot Disk". My knowledge of DOS is extremely limited, and the only thing I can get is, "A>". I think that is just the fact that the A drive is active and not the A prompt which I believe should be "A:/>",

As others have posted, in DOS, the default prompt was A> or C> indicating the drive you are currently "logged on to" or the current active drive. You had to use the PROMPT command to specify how you wanted it to look. Most people just used PROMPT $P$G to change it to something like C:\> where c= current drive, and \ = current directory.

Originally Posted by young87

...but every command I could think of resulted in "Invalid...." .

Dos has both "internal" and "external" commands.
Internal being those that are built into the command interpreter (usually command.com, however there are replacements for command.com), and External being an executable on disk somewhere. For External commands to work, their execuable (.exe or .com) must reside in a directory that is listed in the PATH environment variable, or you must specifiy the drive\directory when you are trying to run it.

Examples of internal commands...
Ver = displays OS version
Copy = copies files from source to target
DIR = displays a list of files/directories
MD or mkdir = creates directory
CD = changes to another directory
RD or rmdir = removes a directory
prompt = changes the look of the command prompt
path = displays or sets the current search path for EXTERNAL commands
set = displays or sets environment variables
time = displays/sets current system time
date = displays/sets current system date

Examples or external commands...
chkdsk = checks/fixes drive and file system for errors, later replaced by scandisk.
Format = formats a drive
Fdisk = partitions hard drives
Xcopy = copies files/directories
SYS = transfers operating system boot files from the current drive to the target.

BTW, These commands carried over to the Win95/98 platform and many still exist in Win2K and WinXP.

Originally Posted by young87

...I am not even sure of what the OS is. I would assume, from someone creating a DOS 5.0 boot disk, that the OS may be 3.1 ???

IF the boot diskette is labeld DOS 5.0, then I assume its DOS 5.0. Where did you see 3.1? If you saw it running Windows 3.1, keep in mind, back then, DOS was the operating system, and Windows (v1 through Windows for Workgroups v3.11) was an operating environment (Does not include WinNT). You would boot DOS, then RUN Windows just like any other program. Windows could be exited which would bring you back to plain DOS. There were many programs that ran in DOS and did not need windows, example MS Word, Word Perfect, Lotus 1-2-3, Norton Utilities, etc.

Originally Posted by young87

I think if I can get to the A prompt, I can then get to the C prompt and hopefully see what the heck might be going on.

With you not knowing some of the basic DOS commands, etc, it will be difficult for you to figure this out on your own, so post the error messages, etc that you see and we can try to help you out.

Btw, since you talk about 5.25" drive, and DOS 5, I'm going to assume this is a 486 based PC. There is an outside chance its a 386 or first generation pentium.

[young87]

Thanks to all for taking your valuable time to help me.
I will try to answer the questions that were asked.
I am trying to get the machine to boot to a usable desk top.
After inserting the owner's 5.25" "DOS 5 Boot Disk" in the A drive and typing in dates and times, which it asks for, I don't know what to do when it gets to "A>". I don't think the floppy is double sided so it must be a 360kb.
The machine has a 3.5" floppy drive which the owner tells me is drive B.
I cut a 3.5" "DOS 5.0 boot disk" from "bootdisk.com" but not had the chance yet to try to use it. My experience ego was deflated at the question -"Does it have hard drive" ? If it doesn't, where would operating data be stored ?
I'm guessing that if the floppy were 1.2 Mb, it would run off that ?
Re: "Where did I see 3.1 ? - I didn't see it anywhere, it was just a guess.
"Mark_Venture" may be on to something with the remark "many programs that ran in DOS did not need windows, like MS Word, Word Perfect", because
I suspect from what the owner has said, she used the machine only for printing from some "Word" program. If that is the case, I think I am in deep trouble and should just let her take it "down town". Whether it is a 486 or a 386, I don't know. How can I find out ? I don't mind taking the cover off. I've built a couple machines on my own. It will be a few days before I can work on the machine again and use all the suggestions.

[KingTermite]

You can find out if its a 386/486 or even a 286 when it boots up. Look fast at the info printing when its POSTing...something should clue you in to its processor type.

As far as the drive type, you'll find out when you try the Bootdisk.com one because everything has been double sided high density for so many years that if the 3.5" isn't that format it won't read it.

Yes, the old systems, before they had hard drives, had DOS stored on the floppy.

Did you try the "ver" command? Or just typing C: to see if it went to the hard drive?

You should also type "dir" and see what is on that floppy...it might help us to answer some questions. Since you are booting from that floppy. Type dir "dir" and get a file list, then type "dir /ah" to see what hidden files are there.

[Deer Slayer]

If it's asking you for the time and date I think it needs a new cmos battery. In which case it probably lost the info for setting up the hard drive too. It should say how to get into the cmos when it's booting, look for something like to enter setup push ???. Probably delete or F10 or F2 or something. If you're lucky there will be a setting to autodetect the hard drive. If not you'll have to pop the top and look at the label on it to enter the tracks, heads, and cylinders. That is if it even has a hard drive. This thing is probably too ancient to be of any practical use anymore anyway.

[KingTermite]

Originally Posted by Deer Slayer

If it's asking you for the time and date I think it needs a new cmos battery. In which case it probably lost the info for setting up the hard drive too. It should say how to get into the cmos when it's booting, look for something like to enter setup push ???. Probably delete or F10 or F2 or something. If you're lucky there will be a setting to autodetect the hard drive. If not you'll have to pop the top and look at the label on it to enter the tracks, heads, and cylinders. That is if it even has a hard drive. This thing is probably too ancient to be of any practical use anymore anyway.

Although that is a possibility, there is an easier answer to check first. In DOS if you do not have any "autoexec.bat" file, it automatically asked you for time and date at startup. Weird feature I know, but that's how it worked. That was why I asked him about the file list.....to eliminate the "easy answer" first.

[Mark_Venture]

Originally Posted by young87

I am trying to get the machine to boot to a usable desk top.

Implies Windows as DOS doesnt have a "Desktop". If the user didn't have windows, this will not be possible.

Originally Posted by young87

After inserting the owner's 5.25" "DOS 5 Boot Disk" in the A drive and typing in dates and times, which it asks for, I don't know what to do when it gets to "A>".

Implies no Autoexec.bat on the floppy. BTW, what did it show as the date/time? Assuming the PC is a 386 or better the CMOS battery also protects the Real Time Clock (RTC), so if the date showed 01-01-80 and the time was 12:00, that would indicate the CMOS battery is probably dead.

Originally Posted by young87

I don't think the floppy is double sided so it must be a 360kb.

For 5.25" there are various types.... Single Sided/Single Density (SS/SD) stored less than 100K. Single Sided/Double Density (SS/DD) stored 180K. Double Sided/Double Density(DS/DD) stored 360K, DoubleSided/HighDensity (DS/HD) stored 1.2Meg. Newer drives were compatible with older diskettes, but not the otherway around.

Originally Posted by young87

The machine has a 3.5" floppy drive which the owner tells me is drive B.
I cut a 3.5" "DOS 5.0 boot disk" from "bootdisk.com" but not had the chance yet to try to use it.

If you can boot off the 5.25" drive, which you can, to get started you wont need any other boot diskette yet. Besides, you won't be able to boot from the 3.5" drive unless you change its position on the floppy drive cable. If its a 286 or above machine, you will also have to change the diskette drive size/capacity in the BIOS for it to able to read it properly. Also, the 3.5" images on Bootdisk.com are 1.44meg images. If the drive is a 720K drive it wont read them even if you move the cable.

Originally Posted by young87

My experience ego was deflated at the question -"Does it have hard drive" ? If it doesn't, where would operating data be stored ?
I'm guessing that if the floppy were 1.2 Mb, it would run off that ?

My first 8088 based computer, an Epson Apex, came with two 5.25" 360k drives. The OS and all programs were on floppies. I had to keep changing diskettes all the time. Later I added a 20Meg Miniscribe hard drive. When the 386SX/DX based PCs were being sold, HDs were cheaper/more common so there is a good chance this PC has one if its truely a 386 or above.

Btw, the owner of this PC didn't tell you she had to flip floppies all the time, right? that would imply it does have a hard drive.

Originally Posted by young87

...I suspect from what the owner has said, she used the machine only for printing from some "Word" program. If that is the case, I think I am in deep trouble and should just let her take it "down town".

There were DOS and Windows versions of word. Ask her if the Word on screen display showed her the fonts/character types that matched the print out. i.e. If she selected Arial 28point as the font, did it show that size and typeface on the screen. If it did, she had WYSIWYG. This will help determin if she had windows... If I remember correctly, MS Word for DOS did not have a WYSIWYG, but Word Perfect did. To get WYSIWYG in MS Word, you had to go to the Windows Version of MS Word.

As for "let her take it down town" only do that if the files are irreplaceable. It will cost you more then it is worth to look at/fix it.

Originally Posted by young87

Whether it is a 486 or a 386, I don't know. How can I find out ? I don't mind taking the cover off. I've built a couple machines on my own. It will be a few days before I can work on the machine again and use all the suggestions.

Before taking the covers off, we need to first step back and examine a few things....

After booting off the 5.25" floppy you have and getting to A> type C: and press ENTER. What happens? do you get a C> prompt? or drive not found?

If you get a C> type DIR and press enter. Do you get a list of files and directories? look for a WINDOWS directory, DOS, look for command.com, config.sys, autoexec.bat, etc.

If you get Drive Not found when trying to do C: then either of the following conditions have occured... 1. The cmos battery has died and the computer lost the hard drive paramaters. 2. The hard drive has gone bad. 3. One of the HD cables went bad. 4. The drive controller has gone bad. or 5. This computer does not actually have a hard drive.

If its only the CMOS battery, the PC is a 386 or better and you can configure how to get into the CMOS Setup, then it is very possible you can recover and get the data off the drive. But unless you can find a replacment battery, your changes will be lost after power off.

With all that being said.... Two questions need to be answered before we go any farther....

1. Are you attempting to resurect this computer so it is usable again or just to get the data off it?

2. How important is the data? Can she live without it?

[Tinker]

Here is some reading material that may help.

http://www.computerhope.com/msdos.htm

[young87]

I am overwhelmed at the generosity of all of you who have taken the time to help me and wanted to let you know that if you don't hear from me for a couple days it is because I am moving my friend's machine out of her house to my work bench where I will have access to the internet, a better monitor, keyboard and mouse while I work on it.
I will keep you advised.

[young87]

I think "Deer Slayer" hit the nail on the head re: dead CMOS bettery. Hoping I would find a nice round 3v watch bettery, I got the cover off and after much searching found a dime size round, 1" long battery, soldered to the underside of the MB which meant removing everything inside the case to get at it. NO WAY !. I figured it would be a waste of time to proceed with trying any of the other suggestions unless I could prove the battery, so it's back to the owner and this case is closed.
Thanks so very much again to all who took the time to help me. There is a really a great bunch of guys "out there" !.
Gone fishin' tomorrow on the Satsop river in SW WA for King Salmon !
young87

[KingTermite]

Originally Posted by young87

Gone fishin' tomorrow on the Satsop river in SW WA for King Salmon !
young87

Ask your friend if you can use the computer for a new boat anchor!!

[young87]

10 year ago, my grandson who worked with Bill Gates out of Bill's garage, when both of them were about 16,
dumped a 486 on my kitchen table and walked out the door. I hollered, "Tommy.how do you turn this thing on ?" Response, "Grandpa, you will find out". After destroying 3 hard disks, I welded a chain to the case and used it for a boat anchor !
Regards