I miss my guns.....

[AARGH]

FFX most liberal in the country? Hardly, wealthiest yes, liberal eh im sure some of the CA folks can top FFX.

my dentists office is just off the rd from NRA hq.

I'll stop there.....

AARGH!

[Underwater Mike]

Yeah, the previous sheriff -- who was opposed to the law -- instructed his staff to withhold approval of the applications. So, without approval from the sheriff's office the applicant had no way of getting his/her permit finalized. The current occupant of the sheriff's office is more amenable but hardly a proponent. Fairfax Co. takes the maximum allowable period to approve a permit, while neighbor Loudon Co. does it in 10 days. Some counties in the state use the FBI's database to provide near-instant approval or denial.

FYI, Virginia's law is weak when it comes to reciprocity with other states (currently something like 5 or 7 agreements in place). The AG's office has never been active in creating reciprocity agreements, regardless of the party or occupant of the office. In contrast, FL has reciprocal agreements with around 20 states. And, you CAN get a nonresident concealed-carry permit in FL, although it is expensive and time consuming. I've been trying to get a copy of the application for about six months and none of my requests have been honored.

But, if you can get an app, $200 (I think), 90 days, proof of proficiency and an official set of fingerprints can get you a FL permit. I have a timeshare in FL (do a lot of diving) and I'm continuing to try to get a nonresident permit. Like VA, FL is another state where you REALLY need the ability to carry.

Originally posted by shootcraps
That's one of the great things about Virginia's law - it's a "shall-issue" state. If they don't find anything to prevent you from having it, they have to issue it. They have 45 days to do it.

Fairfax County tried to interpret the laws themselves and make up their own until the NRA put a couple of lawsuits on them. FC is one of the most liberal counties in the country.

[jrwood]

This thread is kind of shocking to read as you are probably aware that guns in the UK are very rare, even though its probably quite easy to get hold of one if you really wanted to.

Anyway Im interested in your opinions on a guy called Tony Martin who I find it disgraceful for what has happened to him. Our country has turned too far to be politically correct and I understand why so many people are emigrating to the likes of France and Australia!.

The episode began in August 1999 when 16-year-old Fred Barras, and 33-year-old Fearon, broke into Martin's remote, semi-derelict farmhouse in Emneth Hungate, Norfolk. Martin, who was in his house at the time, opened fire with an illegally-held pump-action shotgun. Barras was shot in the back and died at the scene, while Fearon was shot in the leg and recovered after treatment in hospital.

Fred Barras and Brendan Fearon were experienced criminals who had amassed 62 convictions between them. They had convictions for violence and had all served custodial sentences. Barras who died was born in Wakefield, West Yorkshire, had 29 convictions, including assault, six for fraud and seven for theft. Barras was actually on bail when he was fatally shot in his latest burglarly. Fearon, who was born in Newark, had 33 convictions including assaults, burglary and 18 offences of theft.



Three days later, Martin was taken into police custody and charged with murder and wounding with intent. The case caused an immediate furore, with local supporters protesting outside the remand hearing. It became apparent that Martin's orchard farm and home, called Bleak House, had been plagued by crime for years.

Martin had been burgled so many times that he had set up an elaborate network of look-out ladders and traps, even removing a stair to hinder intruders. Three months before the shooting, crooks had broken into the house and taken £6,000 worth of furniture. Martin distrusted the police and was said to have begun fearing for his life. He slept with his clothes and boots on and reportedly kept his gun primed and ready by his bedside.

When his trial began in April 2000 Martin argued that he had genuinely been acting in self-defence even though his gun license had been revoked previously. Norwich Crown Court decided he had gone beyond self-defence, and convicted him of murder - for which he was automatically sentenced to life. The verdict sparked even more argument, with campaigners calling it "monstrous". Martin received thousands of supportive letters in prison. Upon his appeal the court found in Martin's favour and in October 2001 his offence was downgraded to manslaughter and his sentence reduced to five years.

But the controversy did not end there. Fearon, who had more than 30 criminal convictions, is now trying to sue Martin for damages as a result of being shot. He has asked for a reported £15,000 for loss of earnings, claiming he can no longer enjoy sex or bear to see shootings on television. Fearon is himself currently in jail, after being convicted in February of this year on drugs charges and jailed for 18 months. His court case against Martin will be funded completely by UK tax payers who are honest and hard working. The case is likely to be heard once both Fearon and Martin have been freed.

Fred Barras senior, 45, was jailed for 14 years for conspiracy to rob, after taking "a leading role" in an armed raid on June 2001.

Tony Martin is due for automatic release on 28 July, when he will have served two-thirds of his sentence, but this could have been brought forward to as early as September last year. The parole board, however, has continually refused him early release - saying he has shown no remorse and would continue to pose a danger to any other burglars. Martin argues he has made plans to ensure peace and security on his eventual return home. He has discussed protecting his home with electronic gates and an air raid siren, and has been given a specific police contact to call in case of trouble. This has not stopped commentators worrying that he will therefore be vulnerable to revenge attacks from Fearon's supporters - who have reportedly put a bounty on his head, worth tens of thousands of pounds.

I realise that crime is part of life but burglars are the lowest of the low, and if you cant feel safe in your own 4 walls then whoever intrudes on it gets what they deserve. I think the only mistake Tony made while protecting his own land was that he didnt kill Fearon instead of critically injuring him - would of saved a few million pounds for us hard working tax payers when they are both out and this new court case is put against Tony Martin.


http://www.tonymartinsupportgroup.org/
http://www.edp24.co.uk/Content/News/...TonyMartin.asp

I see the police are doing their job properly http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/m...%2Fnmart29.xml

[shootcraps]

I agree Jrwood that it's tragic what has happened to Tony Martin. What a miscarriage of justice. And they call it a "civilized" society when you can't even be safe in your own home.

It's funny to discuss guns with a Brit, because of the lack of guns there. I was talking to a British friend of mine about my guns, and in the middle of the conversation he stopped me, with an astonished look on his face and asked, "How many guns do you own??".

I've heard the Japanese are funny as well. They vacation in Hawaii a lot and one of their favorite spots to visit are the local gun ranges so they can rent guns and try them out.

[Kestral]

Originally posted by jrwood
The parole board, however, has continually refused him early release - saying he has shown no remorse and would continue to pose a danger to any other burglars.

I think this is the most staggeringly insane thing I've ever read. I am absolutely a danger to any burglar who breaks into my house, but at least I know I don't have to worry that the public servants in the procescutors office will be more worried about their lives than mine. Sheesh.

(I'm just stunned that they could say that with a straight face. "Danger to any other burglars" indeed. Well, it's for sure the cops aren't any danger to them.)

[REVAN_abx]

I carry a Para Ordinance P-13 45 cal. I also own a Glock 20 10mm and a five shot snub nosed 38 cal. Along with several rifles.

[Underwater Mike]

Guys,

This is a great discussion! I think, though, that we should distinguish between right-to-carry laws and self-defense laws. VA, for instance, is pretty circumscribed in its justification of deadly force in self-defense. Killing a fleeing attacker beyond your doorway would almost certainly result in indictment (if not conviction) in most VA counties. Similarly, in jurisdctions like Alexandria, you'd better be sure that anyone killed in your home is shot on the attack, rather than the retreat.

Originally posted by Kestral
I think this is the most staggeringly insane thing I've ever read. I am absolutely a danger to any burglar who breaks into my house, but at least I know I don't have to worry that the public servants in the procescutors office will be more worried about their lives than mine. Sheesh.

(I'm just stunned that they could say that with a straight face. "Danger to any other burglars" indeed. Well, it's for sure the cops aren't any danger to them.)

[Kestral]

Oh, I wouldn't kill anyone who was running away. But if they're in my house and coming at me, well, all bets are off.

[Underwater Mike]

I agree. My problem, though, is that with kids around I have to keep everything locked up. Prior to the kids' birth I had a Remington 870 and my Beretta handy; now I have to rely on an alarm system and warning signs for deterrence.

Still, I'm glad I don't live across the river...

Originally posted by Kestral
Oh, I wouldn't kill anyone who was running away. But if they're in my house and coming at me, well, all bets are off.

[shootcraps]

Originally posted by Mike Donatello
I agree. My problem, though, is that with kids around I have to keep everything locked up. Prior to the kids' birth I had a Remington 870 and my Beretta handy; now I have to rely on an alarm system and warning signs for deterrence.

Still, I'm glad I don't live across the river...

You probably know this but for those that don't: One of the biggest things with kids and guns in the house is - DON"T MAKE IT A SECRET. Every kid loves a secret cause that's something they aren't supposed to have or know about.

As my daughters were growing up, anytime I was working with my guns I would let them hold them and see them. As they were looking at them I would be spouting safety rules. I feel very comfortable having my guns in the house.

It was even funny when I got my CCW license cause I thought, now we don't want the kids blabbing to all their friends that I was carrying. Cause there was no way I could keep them from knowing that I was carrying. So I just sat them down and explained how serious it was and that they shouldn't tell anyone. Worked like a charm.

[Gbud]

Well thats the thing.... most of the time all you will have to do is draw the weapon. But if they run, you better not shoot them, even here in the states.

[NiTCOM]

It's a shame. Would he have been convicted if he had tried to
defend himself with a knife or a baseball bat? Just wondering.

I mean if a gun is the only thing to defend yourself proper in that situation then you should be able to use it. After all that what are guns are for! ;-) But I guess he was kinda prepared 24/7 with his arms. Also shame that the cops didn't help him at all - that's there freaking job....

Here in CA it can be very difficult to get a CC license.
I'd love to CC but I don't think the Sheriff would allow me to.

[Vermonter]

Everyone in my houshold has had instruction in the safe use of firarms. When the kids were younger they could fire at targets with supervision pretty much whenever they wanted to. I have discovered that here in Vermont, the anti gun people are mostly people that are not familiar with fire arms and don't feel that they or anyone else needs them. The kids are older now and show no interest in fire arms but at least they still do have a choice.

[Spoonman_abx]

I agree that letting kids know about guns and GUN SAFETY is very imporant. I can't even remember the first time I shot a gun, I musta been 7 years old (.22 rifle). I DO remember the first time I shot a shotgun tho - that 20 gauge was bigger than me! lol

[jrwood]

Originally posted by Mike Donatello
Guys,

This is a great discussion! I think, though, that we should distinguish between right-to-carry laws and self-defense laws. VA, for instance, is pretty circumscribed in its justification of deadly force in self-defense. Killing a fleeing attacker beyond your doorway would almost certainly result in indictment (if not conviction) in most VA counties. Similarly, in jurisdctions like Alexandria, you'd better be sure that anyone killed in your home is shot on the attack, rather than the retreat.

Well dont move to the UK then, if someone enters your house you are only allowed to wrestle them to the floor. If they sustain any serious injuries even from cracking their head open in the struggle you are liable for serious criminal prosecution (including jail terms up to 2 years depending on how serious it is). Kiss goodbye to your £30,000 a year job and exemplary criminal record etc.

So let the burglar enter your house, hope they dont kill you or your family, or leave you in a wheel chair and take it on the chin.

The reason why so many people support what Tony Martin did is because secretly many people wish they could blow the m*********s out the water themselves but they know the consequences. The law here is an ***, it protects criminals who repeat their crimes daily while hard working people who want a good standard of living pay high taxes just to support these types of criminals with the myriad of handouts this country has.

There was a case a year ago where a burglar broke into this guys house and accidentally woke the homeowner up, the burglar put up a struggle but the home owner no doubt wanted to make him remember it. I believe the home owner got 3 months for GBH and lost his job. Wheres the justice in that?, the guy never even had a speeding fine and had a full time job!. The burglar had 100 criminal offenses to his name. The burglar got 1 months community service for breaking and entering...

At least one MP is trying to change one part of the law http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/3074419.stm - imagine someone breaking into your home and then suing you if you laid a finger on him!