Pentagon loses track of weapons for Iraqi forces

[3 of 7]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon cannot account for 190,000 AK-47 rifles and pistols given to Iraqi security forces in 2004 and 2005, or about half the weapons earmarked for soldiers and police, according to a government report.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070806/...RPiUDV77kE1vAI

[Vheox]

Yeah I just saw that... how do you lose 200,000 guns? You can't just drop them and walk away...

[Kipperfillets]

If they can't account for billions of dollars whats a few rifles! :shrug:

[Vheox]

So does 200,000 rifles count as a WMD?

[Vheox]

By the way:

Missing in Iraq:
AK-47 rifles: 110,000
Pistols: 80,000
Body armour pieces: 135,000
Helmets: 115,000

Weren't US soldiers saying they didn't have any body armor? ***?

[switch_abx]

who sang that song?:

"there's a hole in the bucket, in the bucket, in the bucket, there's a hole in the bucket, in the bucket there's a hole."

[TQ]

The last paragraphs are the most interesting in the story:

"The GAO quoted officials as saying the agency responsible for handling weapons distribution was too short-staffed to record information on individual items given to Iraqi forces.

Accountability procedures also could not be fully implemented because of the need to equip Iraqi forces rapidly for combat operations, the GAO found."

It's not surprising that with the drive to ramp up the Iraqi forces as quickly as possible that something like this could happen.

Here's what was rolled out in a very short timespan:

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Oct. 13, 2004 – Multinational Security Transition Command Iraq's continuing mission to help arm and equip Iraq's security forces has, since Oct. 1, seen the distribution of what officials described as "massive quantities" of weapons, armor and vehicles.

The rollout through Oct. 12 included 2,870 AK-47 assault rifles, nearly 5 million rounds of AK-47 ammunition, 182 vehicles, 6,866 sets of body armor, 38,000 pairs of boots, 67,300 9 mm rounds, 26,246 9 mm pistols including 25 Walther pistols, 2,001 Berettas and more than 20,000 Glock 10 PKM machine guns, 160 RPK machine guns, 2,958 handheld radios, 4,000 smoke grenades, four pallets of medical equipment and 4,560 Kevlar helmets.

All equipment has either been issued to Iraqi Army, Iraqi National Guard, or Iraqi police forces or delivered throughout the country for distribution to personnel, officials said.

The Multinational Security Transition Command Iraq is specifically tasked with assisting the Iraqi government train, mentor, and equip its security forces.

(Courtesy of Multinational Security Transition Command Iraq.)

Try keeping track of all that while understaffed. And that was all within a twelve day period.
While it's certainly not good that it's likely quite a bit of this stuff wound up in the hands of the bad guys it's still true arming the Iraqi security forces is one essential part to getting the country on track.
Is there a black market? Sure, but this report is only one item of a rather large picture and even that is two years old.

[Vheox]

Originally Posted by TQ

Try keeping track of all that while understaffed. And that was all within a twelve day period.

So hire more people... or take more time. It's been 5 years and what... 600 billion dollars? Give me a break!

[TQ]

Really? It's that simple? Hire more people? War is never easy or simple. Five years? We occupied Japan for seven years and that was only after we put the fear of God into them by atom bombing two of their cities. Allied occupation of Europe lasted forty-five years and you get breathless over five?
Iraq is where Al Qaeda has decided to fight us. We may debate the whys of going in but that is where the main battlefield is right now. Personally, I'd rather have it there than at The Galleria.
And take more time? What, when we have prominent Democrats saying that we've lost and every major news organization wanting the war to be over in time for the new season of American Idol?

[k0NG0]

There's probably more Al Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan and Pakistan, still. The situation in Iraq is more of a religious civil war between Sunnis and Shiites and various factions, than a coordinated Al Qaeda attack.

Expect Al Qaeda to be quite active in Pakistan to try and oust Musharraf, who's a supporter of the US and thus quite a nice target for a terrorist organization trying to get rid of US (and western in general) influence in the region. What first ticked Bin Laden off was the US military on Saudi soil, holy ground. And the whole cutting off support to Mujahedeen once the soviets were out of Afghanistan back in the 80's.

Anyway, the whole weapons thing is a boo-boo, but I doubt it matters much. The AK-47 is a guerrilla staple all over the world. It's probably more of a drop in the bucket than anything else. "Put them on the pile in the corner."

[TQ]

The AK is an ugly, but effective weapon. Stick it in the mud and it still works.
I hate 'em. No class and no beauty.


Al Qaeda was behind the mosque attack back in early '06 which was designed to incite violence between Shia and Sunnis. It was called "Iraq's 9-11" by one of the Iraqi Vice Presidents.
Worked so well they're still at it today.

This just in:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Coalition troops killed the al Qaeda terrorist who masterminded the February 2006 attack on Samarra's al-Askariya mosque and set off continuing violence and reprisal killings between Sunnis and Shiites, the U.S. military said Sunday. Haitham Sabah al-Badri, the al Qaeda emir of greater Samarra, was killed by an airstrike Thursday east of Samarra, said Rear Adm. Mark Fox during a news conference. "Eliminating al-Badri is another step in breaking the cycle of violence instigated by the attack on the holy shrine in Samarra," Fox said. "We will continue to hunt down the brutal terrorists who are intent on creating a Taliban-like state in Iraq." Coalition forces Thursday raided four buildings outside Samarra that were associated with al-Badri, according to a U.S. military news release. During the raid, at least four armed men were seen leaving the buildings and setting up tactical fighting positions in an effort to ambush coalition forces, the release said.The coalition forces called in close air support, killing al-Badri and the three others, the release said. One of those killed was identified as a foreigner; al-Badri was identified by his close associates and relatives.

[Vheox]

Originally Posted by TQ

Really? It's that simple? Hire more people? War is never easy or simple. Five years? We occupied Japan for seven years and that was only after we put the fear of God into them by atom bombing two of their cities. Allied occupation of Europe lasted forty-five years and you get breathless over five?
Iraq is where Al Qaeda has decided to fight us. We may debate the whys of going in but that is where the main battlefield is right now. Personally, I'd rather have it there than at The Galleria.
And take more time? What, when we have prominent Democrats saying that we've lost and every major news organization wanting the war to be over in time for the new season of American Idol?

Are you seriously comparing Iraq to WW2?

We are not talking about "war" here. I am aware that war is not simply. There are still traces of WW2 where I grew up, and I was nowhere near the heart of the conflict. The only thing I am talking about is the weapons disappearing.

I'm not saying the occupation should end immediately, or the conflict resolved on the spot, or terrorism destroyed within the next 5 minutes... The only thing I said is if you have a team that says they are understaffed and short on time, and they have progressively lost 200,000 guns... maybe you should review that team's performance/procedure?

Just because you may feel strongly about this issue does not mean you should take a simple argument of mine to a ridiculous extreme. Germany almost invaded all of Europe, and potentially more... what the hell did Iraq do? Relatively speaking... nothing.

I was simply pointing out that, in my opinion, losing track of that much equipment is a screw up. The reason I brought up the time frame and the money is that this is probably a team that is being pushed way beyond its limit, and, considering the situation, they should have been better prepared, or allocated more resources. Especially in a country where random acts of terror are prelevant.

[TQ]

I was disagreeing with your characterization that it was a simple "hire more people" fix. Had you originally said we should review the procedure I'd have agreed, but hindsight is twenty-twenty. It's easy to armchair everything we've done in Iraq.
There is a national lack of seriousness when it comes to the threat of religious extremism (unless you're a home-grown evangelist, of course) and I took your statement to be more of that cavalier fashion. My apologies, but it certainly read that way.
Do I compare Iraq to World War II? No, I compare the rise of religious radicals to Hitler's rise to power in the 1930's and how the world - weary from the previous war - chose to do nothing about it. I'd prefer we learned that little lesson from history.
Do I feel strongly about the possibility of world domination by a culture of religious fanaticism and hatred?
You betcha.

Love your avatar, by the way.

[zapionics<alt>]

I understood that the Iraqi forces were disbanded immediately after the invasion, so I assume these "security" forces being talked about are the ex Iraqi army members who were given jobs as police. That wasnt exactly done in a rush was it? This was what, 2004?

Accountability procedures also could not be fully implemented because of the need to equip Iraqi forces rapidly for combat operations, the GAO found.

What was this rush all about that they are now relying on as a reason for this loss? They make it sound like they handed stuff over to whoever turned up on the day.

[Tapir]

"The AK is an ugly, but effective weapon. Stick it in the mud and it still works.
I hate 'em. No class and no beauty."

This is what the young idiots are using on the streets to kill each other here. After the central American wars a lot of the "lost" weapons started appearing on the streets of many cities in the whole hemisphere.

As to the pros and cons of whatever is going on in Iraq - another time. I just cannot see how the hell you are going to loose so many military gear. Or maybe we are all in denial.... Going