Intel High Definition Audio and Vista? - Page 2

TQ · 02-14-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djt

My question is that if all of the functions of Intel’s High Definition Audio are working with Vista properly, why bother with using the X-Fi?
As long as the on-board audio is not causing that much of a CPU hit I’m willing to give up a few features such as EAX.

That would be the primary concern: loss of EAX and positional audio. As long as you're willing to give that up you'll be fine.
Compatibility with older game audio and Vista could also be problematic, but if you're not a gamer, or if game audio isn't of paramount importance to you then Vista might work OK for you.
On-board sound should actually benefit from Vista, if what I have read proves to be correct.
No hardware-acel and no EAX is a deal-killer for me, so I'll wait until that and the hundreds of other Vista issues work themselves out.
I'm keeping a close eye on Creative's ALchemy initiative and watching as their beta drivers develop. They strike me as quite dedicated to working this out, as well they should be since their corporate survival may be at stake.

**Sandog** · 02-14-2007, 12:26 PM

Wouldn't any system that does 5.1 and up provide positional audio? In that case the Intel/Sigmatel audio chip does 7.1.

http://www.idt.com/products/files/11...DS-0-7_IDT.pdf

Sandog

FightingChance · 02-14-2007, 12:49 PM

That's an interesting question Sandog - you'd think that it could, but the PC platform has not been standards compliant with the rest of the multimedia world for some time now. Games are not mixed in a multi-source way similar to game consoles, i.e. Dolby Digital AC-3 or similar. The only game I know of to output in multichannel over the analogs was Doom III, which mixed it in engine instead of relying on the sound hardware. All other games use really weird approximations or proprietary methods if they have positional audio other than EAX, which is rare. EAX is a really cool idea, with reverb and occlusion, but dealing with the drivers and hardware and the fact that it's a closed system owned by Creative, and that their market share of sound solutions is shrinking to 1%, games are eroding support for it.

Intel HDA makes things very hopeful, because it supports Dolby Digital Live which is a multi-channel type of output that games can support if they want to. Also there is DTS Connect on some newer Auzentech and similar sound cards. And thankfully Vista has thrown out some of the really rickety parts of the sound stack, so there is hope yet for multichannel audio in PC games as a rule and not an exception.

**Sandog** · 02-14-2007, 01:06 PM

OT but that Sigmatel chip above does wonders. Too bad Intel is not taking advantage of all the features that chip can provide. I was comparing this chip on the BA2 to the other Intel D975XBX2 board with the TPM chip because they have different audio chips. Anyway this chip does 4 digital mics and 1 analog. I could never get the analog mic even working (low audio). It should with the dB level capability of the chip but like I said, Intel does not use all the capabilities of this chip. Just reading that data sheet is impressive and has to be one of the best onboard sound chips out there. Now you throw Sonic Focus enhancing software on your computer (Intel Audio Studio) and you have the best sounding PC system I have ever heard (PC plus stand alone speakers) playing music. This is without using any of the Dolby programs even which are available. So in answer to future question, yes, the Intel D975XBX2 has kickass audio. Definately no sound card needed.

Sandog

TQ · 02-14-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FightingChance

hardware. All other games use really weird approximations or proprietary methods if they have positional audio other than EAX, which is rare. EAX is a really cool idea, with reverb and occlusion, but dealing with the drivers and hardware and the fact that it's a closed system owned by Creative, and that their market share of sound solutions is shrinking to 1%, games are eroding support for it.

When OpenAL is used in a game's development Creative is then able to bypass the Vista audio stack and provide hardware accelerated audio which includes EAX.
Based on the list I copied from openal.org I'd say that support is still robust, though certainly less than it would be had Microsoft not decided to dump hardware support from Vista.

* Albert's Armageddon (FreeBSD, Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Creative ALchemy (Windows)
* Alien Abduction (Windows)
* Alien Flux (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* America's Army: Operations (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Armed Assault (Windows)
* A Tale in the Desert II (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Battlefield 2 (Windows)
* Battlefield 2142 (Windows)
* Battle Just Started (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Blast Miner (Windows)
* Blender 3D (FreeBSD, Irix, Linux, Macintosh, Solaris, Windows)
* Bridge Construction Set (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Call of Juarez (Windows)
* Cold War (Linux, Windows)
* Dark Horizons: Lore (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* D-Bug (Windows)
* Doom 3 (Macintosh, Windows)
* Dungeons & Dragons Online (Windows)
* El Matador (Windows)
* Escape From Monkey Island (Macintosh)
* E.V.E. Paradox (Linux, Windows)
* FlightGear (FreeBSD, Linux, Macintosh, sgi, Solaris, Windows)
* Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter (Windows)
* Gish (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (Macintosh, Windows)
* Heavy Metal: F.A.K.K.2 (Linux)
* Hot Potato Online (Linux, Windows)
* Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (Macintosh, Windows)
* Jedi Knight 2 (Macintosh, Windows)
* Kohan (Linux)
* Lineage 2 (Windows)
* Mage Knight: Apocalypse (Windows)
* Marble Blast (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Massive Assault (Macintosh)
* MegaCorps Online (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Minigolf Mania (Windows)
* Minions of Mirth (Macintosh, Windows)
* Myst Online: Uru Live (Windows)
* Novus Aster (Windows)
* Orbz (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Pariah (Windows)
* PlaneShift (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Postal 2 (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Prey (Windows)
* Psychonauts (Windows)
* Quake 4 (Windows)
* RocketBowl (Windows)
* Saints and Sinners Bowling (Windows)
* Shellshock Nam '67 (Windows)
* Skyrocket Screensaver (Linux, Windows)
* Soldier of Fortune (Linux)
* Soldier of Fortune 2 (Windows)
* Star Wars Republic Commando (Windows)
* Stubbs the Zombie (Macintosh, Windows)
* Super Dudester (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* SuperTux (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* SWAT 4 (Windows)
* Tactile 3D (Windows)
* Think Tanks (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Tribal Trouble (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Trigger (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Tribes 2 (Linux)
* Tribes: Vengeance (Windows)
* Ultratron (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Unreal 2 (Windows)
* Unreal Tournament 2003 (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Unreal Tournament 2004 (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* VegaStrike (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Void War (Windows)
* Warsow (Linux, Windows)
* Wing Commander Saga (Macintosh, Windows)
* Wurm Online (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* X2: The Threat (Linux)
* X3: Reunion (Windows)
* X-Plane (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Zap! (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)

TQ · 02-14-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FightingChance

Intel HDA makes things very hopeful, because it supports Dolby Digital Live which is a multi-channel type of output that games can support if they want to. Also there is DTS Connect on some newer Auzentech and similar sound cards. And thankfully Vista has thrown out some of the really rickety parts of the sound stack, so there is hope yet for multichannel audio in PC games as a rule and not an exception.

You know, that's an interesting point of view. I hadn't quite thought of it in these terms but ultimately - and logically - getting game developers to design sound using the same approach and standards that movie sound designers are required to use may be partially what Microsoft had in mind all along.
Taken in this context the decision makes perfect sense. Still, how taxing would this be to a CPU? Or is that even a relevant question any longer? If we can output game audio via AC3 or Dolby Digital, what part does the CPU play in this process?

FightingChance · 02-14-2007, 04:24 PM

Well, the original Xbox had AC-3 encoded digital sound and it used a Pentium/Celeron hybrid that ran at 733Mhz. Although, I think there might have been another processor that handled sound specifically (digital surround on Xbox games came 'free' but PS2 had to use the main processor, which is why so few PS2 games have surround sound) but I think sound encoding could be implemented without much strain at all. (especially in the age of multi-core.)

TQ · 02-14-2007, 07:15 PM

Very interesting, indeed. You've given me something new to think about.

**k0NG0** · 02-14-2007, 07:29 PM

The Xbox used nVidia's SoundStorm for audio processing. SoundStorm was created for the Xbox originally, but found other uses in chipsets as well.

Scarpia · 02-18-2007, 01:10 PM

I've seen a number of references to this Sonic Focus enhancing software Intel Audio Studio but can't find a copy of it. I've had the retail Badaxe2 for almost two weeks and have installed the Intel audio drivers but I can't find the Intel Audio Studio on my installation CD or on the Intel support site.

Would some kind soul shine a small light into the dark abyss of my ignorance?

Thanks for your attention.

djt · 02-18-2007, 02:56 PM

Thanks for the excellent responses. This turned out to be a very informative.

Quote:

To answer the question that started the thread, I prefer the RealTek to the Sigmatel at the moment.

This was a real shocker as I’ve always heard that Realtek is junk. It also opens up a new option for me. I’m planning on building another machine (dual boot, XP Pro and Vista Ultimate) and have the choice of using another Bad Axe 2 or an Evga 680i mother board. I was going to give up the SLI support for what I thought was better on board sound with the Bad Axe 2, but after reading this I might give Realtek another look.

Evga claims that Vista has built in support for the Azalia(HDA) on board sound and that drivers are not required. Do you have any ideas or opinions on this?

ATINUT · 02-18-2007, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TQ

When OpenAL is used in a game's development Creative is then able to bypass the Vista audio stack and provide hardware accelerated audio which includes EAX.
Based on the list I copied from openal.org I'd say that support is still robust, though certainly less than it would be had Microsoft not decided to dump hardware support from Vista.

* Albert's Armageddon (FreeBSD, Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Creative ALchemy (Windows)
* Alien Abduction (Windows)
* Alien Flux (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* America's Army: Operations (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Armed Assault (Windows)
* A Tale in the Desert II (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Battlefield 2 (Windows)
* Battlefield 2142 (Windows)
* Battle Just Started (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Blast Miner (Windows)
* Blender 3D (FreeBSD, Irix, Linux, Macintosh, Solaris, Windows)
* Bridge Construction Set (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Call of Juarez (Windows)
* Cold War (Linux, Windows)
* Dark Horizons: Lore (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* D-Bug (Windows)
* Doom 3 (Macintosh, Windows)
* Dungeons & Dragons Online (Windows)
* El Matador (Windows)
* Escape From Monkey Island (Macintosh)
* E.V.E. Paradox (Linux, Windows)
* FlightGear (FreeBSD, Linux, Macintosh, sgi, Solaris, Windows)
* Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter (Windows)
* Gish (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (Macintosh, Windows)
* Heavy Metal: F.A.K.K.2 (Linux)
* Hot Potato Online (Linux, Windows)
* Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy (Macintosh, Windows)
* Jedi Knight 2 (Macintosh, Windows)
* Kohan (Linux)
* Lineage 2 (Windows)
* Mage Knight: Apocalypse (Windows)
* Marble Blast (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Massive Assault (Macintosh)
* MegaCorps Online (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Minigolf Mania (Windows)
* Minions of Mirth (Macintosh, Windows)
* Myst Online: Uru Live (Windows)
* Novus Aster (Windows)
* Orbz (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Pariah (Windows)
* PlaneShift (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Postal 2 (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Prey (Windows)
* Psychonauts (Windows)
* Quake 4 (Windows)
* RocketBowl (Windows)
* Saints and Sinners Bowling (Windows)
* Shellshock Nam '67 (Windows)
* Skyrocket Screensaver (Linux, Windows)
* Soldier of Fortune (Linux)
* Soldier of Fortune 2 (Windows)
* Star Wars Republic Commando (Windows)
* Stubbs the Zombie (Macintosh, Windows)
* Super Dudester (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* SuperTux (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* SWAT 4 (Windows)
* Tactile 3D (Windows)
* Think Tanks (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Tribal Trouble (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Trigger (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Tribes 2 (Linux)
* Tribes: Vengeance (Windows)
* Ultratron (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Unreal 2 (Windows)
* Unreal Tournament 2003 (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Unreal Tournament 2004 (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* VegaStrike (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Void War (Windows)
* Warsow (Linux, Windows)
* Wing Commander Saga (Macintosh, Windows)
* Wurm Online (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* X2: The Threat (Linux)
* X3: Reunion (Windows)
* X-Plane (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)
* Zap! (Linux, Macintosh, Windows)

That list is a bunch of bull, there is no way that Unreal 2, Soldier Of Fortune 2, and countless games that came out over 6 years ago, support OpenAL. I own Soldier Of Fortune 2, and in no way was there ever anything about OpenAL, that organization is lying through their teeth about which games support OpenAL.

ATINUT · 02-18-2007, 04:16 PM

I'm about ready to redo my machine, and set it up for dual boot. I'm tired of this garbage of not being able to run all of my games, such as Quake 4.

TQ · 02-18-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATINUT

That list is a bunch of bull, there is no way that Unreal 2, Soldier Of Fortune 2, and countless games that came out over 6 years ago, support OpenAL. I own Soldier Of Fortune 2, and in no way was there ever anything about OpenAL, that organization is lying through their teeth about which games support OpenAL.

And how does lying about something that is so easily disproved of benefit to OpenAL.org?

OpenAL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

02-14-2007, 12:26 PM	#17
Sandog DP45SG/Q9650 Join Date: May 2003 Location: Alabama Posts: 6,199	Wouldn't any system that does 5.1 and up provide positional audio? In that case the Intel/Sigmatel audio chip does 7.1. http://www.idt.com/products/files/11...DS-0-7_IDT.pdf Sandog __________________
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02-14-2007, 12:49 PM	#18
FightingChance Yes, I am better than you Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Winter Park, FL Posts: 4,068	That's an interesting question Sandog - you'd think that it could, but the PC platform has not been standards compliant with the rest of the multimedia world for some time now. Games are not mixed in a multi-source way similar to game consoles, i.e. Dolby Digital AC-3 or similar. The only game I know of to output in multichannel over the analogs was Doom III, which mixed it in engine instead of relying on the sound hardware. All other games use really weird approximations or proprietary methods if they have positional audio other than EAX, which is rare. EAX is a really cool idea, with reverb and occlusion, but dealing with the drivers and hardware and the fact that it's a closed system owned by Creative, and that their market share of sound solutions is shrinking to 1%, games are eroding support for it. Intel HDA makes things very hopeful, because it supports Dolby Digital Live which is a multi-channel type of output that games can support if they want to. Also there is DTS Connect on some newer Auzentech and similar sound cards. And thankfully Vista has thrown out some of the really rickety parts of the sound stack, so there is hope yet for multichannel audio in PC games as a rule and not an exception.
(Offline)

02-14-2007, 01:06 PM	#19
Sandog DP45SG/Q9650 Join Date: May 2003 Location: Alabama Posts: 6,199	OT but that Sigmatel chip above does wonders. Too bad Intel is not taking advantage of all the features that chip can provide. I was comparing this chip on the BA2 to the other Intel D975XBX2 board with the TPM chip because they have different audio chips. Anyway this chip does 4 digital mics and 1 analog. I could never get the analog mic even working (low audio). It should with the dB level capability of the chip but like I said, Intel does not use all the capabilities of this chip. Just reading that data sheet is impressive and has to be one of the best onboard sound chips out there. Now you throw Sonic Focus enhancing software on your computer (Intel Audio Studio) and you have the best sounding PC system I have ever heard (PC plus stand alone speakers) playing music. This is without using any of the Dolby programs even which are available. So in answer to future question, yes, the Intel D975XBX2 has kickass audio. Definately no sound card needed. Sandog __________________
(Offline)

02-14-2007, 04:24 PM	#22
FightingChance Yes, I am better than you Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Winter Park, FL Posts: 4,068	Well, the original Xbox had AC-3 encoded digital sound and it used a Pentium/Celeron hybrid that ran at 733Mhz. Although, I think there might have been another processor that handled sound specifically (digital surround on Xbox games came 'free' but PS2 had to use the main processor, which is why so few PS2 games have surround sound) but I think sound encoding could be implemented without much strain at all. (especially in the age of multi-core.)
(Offline)

02-14-2007, 07:15 PM	#23
TQ You gonna throw that? Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 8,442	Very interesting, indeed. You've given me something new to think about. __________________ Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me - Psalm 51:10 My goal in life is to be as good of a person as my dogs already think I am... Daywalker Studio: Software: Adobe Audition 3.0/Pro Tools LE 7.4/Acid Pro 6.0/Multiple VST, DirectX and RTAS plugins/Kontakt 3 Sampler/Windows XP Professional PC Hardware: D975XBX2-504/E6600/4x2GB Mushkin XP2-6400/eVGA 800GTX/HP f1905 19" flat panel/Echo Audio Gina24 Sound Card/2 Maxtor 6B300SO's/1 Maxtor STM500AS/1 Western Digital WD2500JD/PleXwriter Premium/Plextor 716A/Samsung LightScribe DVD burner/Logitech Revolution MX/Antec P-180b/PPC&C Silencer 610/Zalman CNPS9500 HSF Recording Hardware: Mbox 2 Factory Pro/Mackie SR24.4VLZ Pro Console/M-Audio Axiom 25 MIDI Controller/Audio-Technica 4033a microphone/Symetrix 528E/PreSonus Eureka/Mackie MR8 active monitors Game Machine: Gigabyte GA-X48-DQ6/E8400/4x2GB Mushkin XP2-8500/BFG GTX280/HP f2105 21" flat panel/Creative Labs X-Fi Elite Pro/Maxtor 6H500F0/Maxtor STM3320/Western Digital WD4000KD/Plextor 760A/Toshiba DVD-ROM/Zalman CNPS9700/Antec P-180/PPC&C Silencer 610/Ideazon Merc Stealth keyboard/Vista Business64 SP1
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02-14-2007, 07:29 PM	#24
k0NG0 Remembering TQ Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sweden Posts: 13,627	The Xbox used nVidia's SoundStorm for audio processing. SoundStorm was created for the Xbox originally, but found other uses in chipsets as well. __________________ Use Firefox - "the one that blocks all the schmutz" Feeling multicore elation? Remember this correlation: Amdahl's Law.
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02-18-2007, 01:10 PM	#25
Scarpia Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 25	I've seen a number of references to this Sonic Focus enhancing software Intel Audio Studio but can't find a copy of it. I've had the retail Badaxe2 for almost two weeks and have installed the Intel audio drivers but I can't find the Intel Audio Studio on my installation CD or on the Intel support site. Would some kind soul shine a small light into the dark abyss of my ignorance? Thanks for your attention.
(Offline)

02-18-2007, 04:16 PM	#28
ATINUT Just Plain Crazy! Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,278	I'm about ready to redo my machine, and set it up for dual boot. I'm tired of this garbage of not being able to run all of my games, such as Quake 4. __________________ Intel D975XBX2 Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 8GB's of Mushkin HP2 6400 memory(DDR2 800) two Sapphire GDDR4 Radeon 3870 videocards HT Omega Claro(Cmedia 8788HD chip) 120GB&200GB&320GB Western Digital harddrives LG DVDROM & LG DVDBURNER HP Deskjet 920C Logitech X-540 speakers Viewsonic VG2030wm 20inch Widescreen LCD Windows Vista Ultimate 64bit with Service Pack 1 Who'se the fool that approved the design for this place. - The Dwarf, Sacred Underworld.
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