Need a good serial port PCI-e card!! (but with a caveat.)

[Kimbo]

For well over a decade, 15 years to be exact, I have used the same model Logitech mouse - specifically, the Logitech TrackMan Stationary Mouse model T-CC2-9F. If my memory serves me right, Logitech stopped production of these mice back in 1993. Please don't attempt to lecture me about the benefits of using newer USB mice - I am well aware of how things are. At the end of the day, I am still happily using the very same model Logitech mouse today. As it is, it's actually connected to my PC using a serial to USB connector cable - since my current motherboard no longer has a serial port. Unfortunately this is the case with most motherboards for the last few years. Intel, among others, wants to dump the "legacy" hardware support from current and future hardware. Several years ago they started phasing out things like the serial and parallel ports, the PS/2 connector and the floppy controller among others. Even with Intel's mighty determination and influence, the venerable floppy controller is still on most motherboards even today, thank God. (I still use it to boot from it using my Windows 98SE boot disk. )

As part of good/safe computing practices, I re-install Windows every few months. I multi boot, but my main Windows setup averages a four times a year re-install. These are clean OEM installs on freshly reformatted drives. I do also restore ghosted Windows images for my test setup much more frequently. Since my previous motherboard had a serial port at the back, my Logitech TrackMan Stationary Mouse was connected to it directly - and everything was fine. When I needed to re-install Windows, the mouse would be picked up automatically as a "Generic Serial Mouse". In fact, and rather importantly, even before Windows was installed it was recognized and usable during the actual Windows install setup routine. This was just normal. (And I've been doing it with Windows 95, 98SE, Me, 2000 and now XP)

My current motherboard no longer has a serial port. This in itself isn't a really big issue, since I already mentioned that I use a converter cable. This works well once Windows is installed. But, that's the thing - Windows has to be installed for the mouse to be recognized. This is down to the converter - and I understand that - but I would so much more prefer to have the mouse be recognized even before Windows is installed - like it used to be.

I am now thinking that if I buy a serial port card (PCI-e version) and use that instead of the converter cable, things will go back to the way they were. It makes sense - the card would be initialized during the system boot process and resources (ie: IRQ) would then be reserved for it, as was the case with the on board serial port of my previous motherboards.

To conclude, I would like to point out that in the past, when using the on board serial port I never had to install any kind of drivers for my Logitech TrackMan Stationary Mouse. Like I said, it was recognized before Windows was installed - during the install process itself. Please don't get confused with the option of installing Logitech software drivers once Windows is installed. This software (MouseWare/SetPoint) installs specific drivers so that Windows can recognize the exact model. Once this software is installed and rebooted Windows shows the mouse as Logitech TrackMan Stationary Mouse instead of Generic Serial Mouse. Additionally, it provides enhanced options for the device. This is the normal install process I follow, but it is not required - the mouse works just fine when recognized as Generic Serial Mouse by Windows.

From the few short queries that I have made so far regarding serial port cards, I seem to be getting information, or misinformation, that these serial port cards also require drivers for them to function at all. To clarify, I mean like my current situation - where my Logitech TrackMan Stationary Mouse will not be recognized and usable until Windows is fully installed and the serial to USB converter cable drivers installed properly. This is what I need to sort out before I purchase such a card. Will a PCI-Express serial port card recognize my mouse the same as a serial port built into the motherboard, which is what I want, or only after installing the correct drivers and an operating system.

To sum up:

• Using my Logitech TrackMan Stationary Mouse with an on board serial port, it was recognized and usable during the Windows install routine. (Which also means that if I wanted to, it would also work in MS-DOS with the correct drivers.)

• Using my Logitech TrackMan Stationary Mouse with a serial to USB converter cable, it is not recognized or usable during the Windows install routine. (Which also means that it would not work in MS-DOS.)

I'd like to be able to have it like before - where it is recognized and usable during the Windows install routine. I am hoping a serial port card will achieve this. Can you help ?

[ctal]

Have you tried the mouse + usb converter cable during the Windows install routine with legacy usb support enabled in the bios?

Regards,
-- Al

[Sandog]

You should be able to get it done by what ctal said.

Also if you have a PS/2 connector on your mobo then you can go serial to USB and then use a USB to PS/2 adapter.

Don't know which mobo you bought but there are plenty of new mobo's with serial ports. My brand new Intel DP45SG has one. Several Asus, Gigabyte boards still have PS/2, floppy, IDE, serial port onboard.

[Rick_EE]

Does it have a ps/2 port? I did a google search and found pin-out and converter products. Most are the other way around (ps/2 mouse to serial) but there are a couple that work the other way.

[Kimbo]

Originally Posted by ctal

Have you tried the mouse + usb converter cable during the Windows install routine with legacy usb support enabled in the bios?

Regards,
-- Al

Thanks for that suggestion. Indeed I have, and it makes no difference either way.

Originally Posted by Sandog

Also if you have a PS/2 connector on your mobo then you can go serial to USB and then use a USB to PS/2 adapter.

Even before I address your recommendation, I need to ask why I should use two converters ? Why not use just one serial to PS/2 converter ?

I do have one PS/2 connector on my motherboard that is purple and designated for keyboard use - which I don't use since my keyboard is USB. Can I use a mouse in it instead ? I always wondered if one could use either device in the other one's port. I never did try this out. Are they exactly identical - pin wise and voltage wise ? Would it be safe ? I am aware that some newer boards do actually have one port that can be used for either keyboard or mouse. But I'm not sure about boards that are not designed this way.

Originally Posted by Sandog

Don't know which mobo you bought but there are plenty of new mobo's with serial ports. My brand new Intel DP45SG has one. Several Asus, Gigabyte boards still have PS/2, floppy, IDE, serial port onboard.

I know, and have said, that some motherboards still have them. But in time many won't. That's fact. As for my board ? It's in my profile - it's the ASUS P5E.

[Rick_EE]

If you have one port, you may be able to use a Y-adapter. Older lapops before USB did this. Not sure in your case. You might be able to see in the manual.

http://store.l-f-l.com/prod/PS2-ADAPTER/51F6727275- something like that.

The pin outs for keyboard and mouse are different. I acutally had a machine recently not post until I switched the mouse and keyboard.

[Kimbo]

Originally Posted by Rick_EE

If you have one port, you may be able to use a Y-adapter. Older lapops before USB did this. Not sure in your case. You might be able to see in the manual.

http://store.l-f-l.com/prod/PS2-ADAPTER/51F6727275- something like that.

The pin outs for keyboard and mouse are different. I acutally had a machine recently not post until I switched the mouse and keyboard.

I purchased a PS/2 Y splitter after this recommendation and tried it. It does not work. The mouse was not usable during the XP installation nor in DOS mode using drivers. I did however notice that the mouse was in a way recognized by the system - because after booting using my Win98 bootdisk and moving the ball, at the DOS prompt, the @ character was being "written" as I was moving the ball. Then after a short while if I kept moving the ball it froze the system necesitating a reboot. But this proves that the connection works since moving the ball (mouse) was recognized. I tested this using only the mouse connected to the Y splitter - as opposed to both a keyboard and mouse. This was because like stated, my current keyboard is USB. But perhaps the Y splitter needs both devices connected to work properly. So I'll try it that way soon...
Any comments in the meantime ???

[k0NG0]

I'm assuming you've hit the Google and found serialgear.com and similar sites? Serial ports are still pretty common for point-of-sale products and such, there's still a market for it. I managed to find a bunch of PCIe cards with anywhere from 1 to 8 serial ports.

Of course, whether it'll work with a mouse is a good question. I suggest mailing a company that sells such a card and asking. I found the one below that looks reputable, for example.

UltraPort Express Serial Cards - Perle

[Kimbo]

kongo, that place i visited before....
i think their primary market must be corporations and saudi royalty.
their prices are outrageous, most single port cards are $US50+. right now that's around $AU90. insane!!!! a single serial port card should average around $10-$15. see ? this is what happens when stuff that only months ago was on most motherboards is removed FOR NO GOOD REASON. people take advantage. they assume that anyone wanting a serial port is desperate and must really want one. also i did a live chat with a perle rep and he said those cards do need drivers to work.... if he wasn't wrong then that's useless for me, like i explained. i need a serial port that just works - with no drivers - at the earliest stage of a system's boot - like they bloody well should - and like a normal motherboard one does.

[k0NG0]

Well, I disagree with "for no good reason" as I think it's fiscally sensible to get rid of functionality that extremely few people base their purchase on. But anyway.

You'd probably need BIOS support to get something that works as early as you want. Which would mean serial ports that are connected to the I/O chip on the mobo. Which in turn would mean you're probably out of luck.

I think you're just going to have to bite the bullet and buy a mobo with serial ports. You can always sell the current one and it'll probably hurt less in terms of money.

I'm curious as to why you didn't get a mobo with serial ports if you knew you needed it? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just wonder why.

[Kimbo]

Originally Posted by k0NG0

I'm curious as to why you didn't get a mobo with serial ports if you knew you needed it? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just wonder why.

Because at the time, the other ASUS range were not in stock anywhere I looked* (several places) so I just got the basic P5E. Normally, I always get the Deluxe/Premium range. But I was just too impatient - one of my weaknesses. Anyway, like I stated, my mouse that I want to use works just fine with the USB adapter. But if I can get this thing sorted out it will be perfect. As for a future motherbord with a serial port, that's unlikely - my next one at this stage is the P6T Deluxe which lacks it. In fact all the current ASUS LGA-1366 ones do. And, yeah I'm an ASUS fanboy...

Another thing I'm not sure about is this: the difference between a native USB mouse like my Logitech Cordless TrackMan Wheel, and my Logitech TrackMan Stationary Mouse which is native serial but uses a USB adapter. If I connect the Logitech Cordless TrackMan Wheel it is recognized in the BIOS, and it works without any drivers during the Windows install. The Logitech TrackMan Stationary Mouse is not recognized in the BIOS, nor by the Windows install. So to me that means that it's not a proper USB mouse - which we, us the humans, right now, know - but how does the system know ? I assumed using adapters turns them into proper "whatever the adapter is" devices. Seems that isn't entirely so. I mean an example would be when you use a country specific power adapter. I can take my camera charger to the US and use it using a AU/US power adapter - which I have done. It just works. This isn't what is happening with my USB mouse adapter - and I wish it was. In other words I still don't understand why my USB adapter needs drivers for it to work at all ??




* Local shops.