Grand Theft Auto: An Editorial Comment

Miles · 07-26-2005, 06:29 PM

Title: Random Musings: Vol.1, No. 8: Grand Theft Auto: An Editorial Comment

Reviewer: Gerald "grsamf" Smith

Excerpt: "A raging controversy has arisen in the gaming world concerning Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and explicit sex scenes in the game. The "Hot Coffee" mod unlocked interactive explicit sexual content and was made available for download on the internet. Almost instantly a firestorm arose, with many individuals and groups calling for tighter regulation of gaming. Democratic Senator Hillary Clinton and Republican Representative John Upton have led the charge in Congress for tougher controls. It did not help that Rockstar Games, makers of GTA, first denied that the code for the scenes was present in the original game, but later admitted that it manufactured the scenes but continued to claim they were inadvertently left behind when the final version was released. The calls for regulation have been met with reactions ranging from amusement to outrage. Arguments on all sides miss many of the key points of the issue."

Feel free to post your comments and questions here!

Link To Article

**CrowdAds** · [Remove Advertisement]

Bofinn · 07-27-2005, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Reviewer: [/b]Gerald "grsamf" Smith]

I am particularly unmoved by Rockstar's bemoaning of the fact that it stands to lose $60 million dollars from lost sales in this fiasco, as several vendors decline to carry games with the AO rating.

How are they going to lose money? If you can't buy it in one store, then you go elsewhere... It doesn't matter if Walmart sells it or not, if someone wants to buy the game - they will!

grsamf · 07-27-2005, 08:44 AM

I aslo would question Rockstar's claims, but it is what they have said. They attribute the loss to the fact that very few vendors will carry games with the AO rating. The $60 million figure is apparently in gross revenues and not profit, but even that is probably inflated.

**SubZero** · 07-28-2005, 04:27 AM

It may even create more revenues because of the publicity.

BTW: I don't agree with the conclusion that the gamers and publishers are to blame... There will always be people who use a minor issue and blow it up way out of proportion. It is fuel for the minority to get attention. It is hypocrytical to make such a stampede over this while there are far more important issues at hand. This extremely violent game should have been 18+ rated from the start, with or without the sexscenes...

But I would rather have my kid get his hands on a GTA copy then on a handgun but I know that is another discussion. Nipplegate showed IMHO that Americans should take a closer look at themselves before making a fuzz over nothing. Okay, maybe it's not nothing but you get my drift.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bofinn

How are they going to lose money? If you can't buy it in one store, then you go elsewhere... It doesn't matter if Walmart sells it or not, if someone wants to buy the game - they will!

general_koffi · 07-28-2005, 05:50 AM

I have to go with the "Tempest in a Teacup" analogy.

People dying from peanut oil poisoning or growing feelers after ingesting radioactive material dumped in the water supply by "The Corporations" is somewhat of a far cry from Little Timmy accidentally seeing some badly-rendered nipple in between his slaughtering of videogame characters and Bible-studies lessons, don't you think?

Besides, Little Timmy would have to have gone onto the web to download this obviously very naughty content to begin with. Something his parents should certainly have noticed before they sued Rockstar, not so?

All of this naturally assumes that Little Timmy is an emotionally incapable and immature seventeen year old who is somehow expected to become a normal and emotionally capable person when he turns eighteen...

Honestly, I give up. Only in the 'States would people take legal action over something so impossibly trivial... Only in the 'States would these crying little babies be awarded legal compensation for their "damages".

**SubZero** · 07-28-2005, 06:06 AM

Good point about parent's responsibillities.... even before downloading the mod.. I would say a parent knows which games his/her children play....

Too many people these days hide behind legislation and laws and don't take responsibility as a parent. This is where the excesses come from these days...

grsamf · 07-28-2005, 11:42 AM

As I said in the article, I absolutely agree that parents have a responsibility, but the issue here is whether they can rely on the truth an accuracy of the voluntary rating system. I also was not talking about lawsuits, many of which are indeed ridiculous. I have no sympathy, for example, for the grandmother and her 14 year old grandson. As I also said in the article, however, the issue points out the general unreliability of the current rating system that the gaming industry has touted as making it unnecessary to have governmental intevention.

I also agree that there are more important things, but how much time, effort and money are game makers and game players spending on those important things? Indeed much of the furor and venom are coming from the "crying little babies" on the gaming side of the table. Many parents, perhaps even the majority, would argue that protecting their children from gore, sexism, racism and the other aspects predominate in many games is much more important than the right of any one to engage in such unimportant pasttimes. The excessess come from the irresponsibility of the gaming communitty.

general_koffi · 07-28-2005, 12:11 PM

I have as much right to all the gore, sexism, racism and violence I want as Little Timmy has to be protected from it, and judging by the First Amendment, those living in the USA do too. Little Timmy should be protected if it harms him, but that's not the gaming community's problem.

GTA: San Andreas was rated 17+ without taking the LOCKED and PURPOSEFULLY EXCLUDED "prolonged sexual content" into account. Admittedly Rockstar should never have lied about the existence of such content, but the fact remains that it WAS NOT intended to be accessed by the end user. You might as well give a book an age restriction because people are drawing lewd pictures on the pages... it's the same concept taken to a new level by the way that computer programs work.

Besides... if Little Timmy's parents think that it's alright for him to play a game which is rated 17+ and contains graphic violence, terrible swearing, racism, gore and the rest of it, but don't think he can play the same game rated 18+ containing fairly tame sex between two consenting adults, then perhaps Timmy and his parents are a bit beyond those whom the gaming industry should be concerned with protecting, hmm? The old saying, "God helps those who help themselves", comes to mind.

**SubZero** · 07-29-2005, 04:00 AM

I agree a 100% the rating systems are ver flawed. Also overhere... They are practicly not working.

I still believe the main responsibility is with the parents. Rockstar doesn't deserve a pat on the back for the way they handled this but this uproar is rediculous. Whether or not there should be government is irrelevant in the beginning.. Parents shouldn't rely on it and if they are then that is another big flaw in the rating system. Like was allready concluded.

The fact that someone hacked the game and exposed content that wasn't there for anyone to find in the first place cannot be blaimed on Rockstar.

grsamf · 07-29-2005, 07:56 AM

Parents shouldn't be able to rely on a system that was developed by the industry and proclaimed to be a guide to parents and others and provide information about the contents? What is the rating system for, then?

Rockstar must take the blame for the code being there. They put it there. The original denial is an implicit recognition of their responsibility. And the comments by other game makers indicate that they agree that Rockstar has soiled the waters.

**SubZero** · 07-29-2005, 08:26 AM

Don't get me wrong. I thought I mad that clear: I 100% agree with you on the rating system.

Rockstar is now being hanged in the highest tree.. I wonder how many gamemakers have pulled a stunt like this and get away with it because those hidden things weren't discovered? Maybe the same gamemakers that now claim Rockstar has soiled the waters?

Really... the scenes were hidden and only become available after hacking the game.... What are we talking about. The people making a big deal about this should be just as worried about the incredible violence in the game... have you played it? I mean... errr... I think the violence in doom 3 has a lesser impact since it is clear there that it is fiction and we are dealing with monsters....

Conclusion: Rating system: doesn't work. They need to develop technology to do age checks before playing the actual games... the technology is there... do parents care enough to spend money on it??? Nope... they don't and there is the problem. Or at least one of the problem. It keeps boiling down to the parents and not the gamemakers. If gamers demand something they will get it because in the end that is what sells games. If the gamers' parents demand a age control system they will develop it...

general_koffi · 07-29-2005, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubZero

Don't get me wrong. I thought I mad that clear: I 100% agree with you on the rating system.

Rockstar is now being hanged in the highest tree.. I wonder how many gamemakers have pulled a stunt like this and get away with it because those hidden things weren't discovered? Maybe the same gamemakers that now claim Rockstar has soiled the waters?

Really... the scenes were hidden and only become available after hacking the game.... What are we talking about. The people making a big deal about this should be just as worried about the incredible violence in the game... have you played it? I mean... errr... I think the violence in doom 3 has a lesser impact since it is clear there that it is fiction and we are dealing with monsters....

Conclusion: Rating system: doesn't work. They need to develop technology to do age checks before playing the actual games... the technology is there... do parents care enough to spend money on it??? Nope... they don't and there is the problem. Or at least one of the problem. It keeps boiling down to the parents and not the gamemakers. If gamers demand something they will get it because in the end that is what sells games. If the gamers' parents demand a age control system they will develop it...

What? Something to check your age?? Like what? A driver licence reader? A DNA tester???

My God... if people were worried as much about public health as they were about their twisted and hypocritical sense of morality, then cancer would have been cured ten years ago.

Besides, I know many people age 15 and below who are more than emotionally capable to handle a game rated 17+ or 18+. Hell, I'm only 16 myself!

What you need are parents who actually know what their children are doing half the time!

When they accidentally give a game like GTA a rating of 10+, then I'll recognize that the ESRB system isn't working... But this massive arguing about a 17+ or 18+ rating just doesn't seem very convincing.

Besides, Rockstar concealed the content from the ESRB. Why would it have been any harder to conceal it from any other regulatory body?

**SubZero** · 07-29-2005, 01:27 PM

Yes, I was thinking DNA tester, blood analyzer, hey maybe they could even create a system which would check on-line with the police department to see whether the kid has some outstanding warrents..!!

Oh, it should also check whether he/she visits church regularly...

No seriously....

If things like this get so blown up maybe some sort of system is needed since the current rating system is not working as it is not working overhere.

BTW: I don't disagree with your other points.

general_koffi · 07-30-2005, 01:45 PM

Yeah well, you do live in The Netherlands. Let's face it, you're going to be the last country on Earth to bring legislation against video games.

Hey, I found a rather interesting article relating to the whole Hot Coffee affair.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25015

Some important points raised there, I feel.

JaGWiRE_abx · 07-30-2005, 02:21 PM

I think ag ood system would be like a digital passport check, just like how you give it to the boarder when you cross countries, except digital

.

07-26-2005, 06:29 PM	#1
Miles Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: South Carolina Posts: 5,560	Grand Theft Auto: An Editorial Comment Title: Random Musings: Vol.1, No. 8: Grand Theft Auto: An Editorial Comment Reviewer: Gerald "grsamf" Smith Excerpt: "A raging controversy has arisen in the gaming world concerning Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and explicit sex scenes in the game. The "Hot Coffee" mod unlocked interactive explicit sexual content and was made available for download on the internet. Almost instantly a firestorm arose, with many individuals and groups calling for tighter regulation of gaming. Democratic Senator Hillary Clinton and Republican Representative John Upton have led the charge in Congress for tougher controls. It did not help that Rockstar Games, makers of GTA, first denied that the code for the scenes was present in the original game, but later admitted that it manufactured the scenes but continued to claim they were inadvertently left behind when the final version was released. The calls for regulation have been met with reactions ranging from amusement to outrage. Arguments on all sides miss many of the key points of the issue." Feel free to post your comments and questions here! Link To Article __________________ Regards, Miles ________________________________ Intel I7 965 \| ASUS P6T \| 3 x 2Gb Corsair DDR-3 \| XFX GTX 260\| 2 - Seagate 750GB Barracuda ES \| Thermalright 1200 watt \| Lian Li G70 \| Windows 7 64-bit Professional \| Dell 2407 FPW Monitor
(Offline)

07-27-2005, 08:44 AM	#3
grsamf Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,739	I aslo would question Rockstar's claims, but it is what they have said. They attribute the loss to the fact that very few vendors will carry games with the AO rating. The $60 million figure is apparently in gross revenues and not profit, but even that is probably inflated.
(Offline)

07-28-2005, 05:50 AM	#5
general_koffi Doggy Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 566	I have to go with the "Tempest in a Teacup" analogy. People dying from peanut oil poisoning or growing feelers after ingesting radioactive material dumped in the water supply by "The Corporations" is somewhat of a far cry from Little Timmy accidentally seeing some badly-rendered nipple in between his slaughtering of videogame characters and Bible-studies lessons, don't you think? Besides, Little Timmy would have to have gone onto the web to download this obviously very naughty content to begin with. Something his parents should certainly have noticed before they sued Rockstar, not so? All of this naturally assumes that Little Timmy is an emotionally incapable and immature seventeen year old who is somehow expected to become a normal and emotionally capable person when he turns eighteen... Honestly, I give up. Only in the 'States would people take legal action over something so impossibly trivial... Only in the 'States would these crying little babies be awarded legal compensation for their "damages". __________________ Core 2 Duo E6300 @2.4Ghz\|Asus P5B\|DDR2-800 1*1024MB\|Gainward Geforce 8800GTS 320MB\|Seagate 200GB 7200.7 SATA HDD\|AOpen 400W PSU
(Offline)

07-28-2005, 06:06 AM	#6
SubZero Moderator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Below sealevel Posts: 9,663	Good point about parent's responsibillities.... even before downloading the mod.. I would say a parent knows which games his/her children play.... Too many people these days hide behind legislation and laws and don't take responsibility as a parent. This is where the excesses come from these days... __________________ Main Rig: Asus P5K \| Intel Core Quad Q6600 \| Corsair XMS 6400-4gig eVGA GeForce 8800 GTX KO ACS3 \| X-Fi ExtremeMusic \| Z-5500D OCZ GameXstream 850W \| ThermalTake Aguila \| Logitech G-15 Logitech MX1000 \| Synology DS-207+ NAS (2x500WD-SATA2-RAID0)
(Offline)

07-28-2005, 11:42 AM	#7
grsamf Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,739	As I said in the article, I absolutely agree that parents have a responsibility, but the issue here is whether they can rely on the truth an accuracy of the voluntary rating system. I also was not talking about lawsuits, many of which are indeed ridiculous. I have no sympathy, for example, for the grandmother and her 14 year old grandson. As I also said in the article, however, the issue points out the general unreliability of the current rating system that the gaming industry has touted as making it unnecessary to have governmental intevention. I also agree that there are more important things, but how much time, effort and money are game makers and game players spending on those important things? Indeed much of the furor and venom are coming from the "crying little babies" on the gaming side of the table. Many parents, perhaps even the majority, would argue that protecting their children from gore, sexism, racism and the other aspects predominate in many games is much more important than the right of any one to engage in such unimportant pasttimes. The excessess come from the irresponsibility of the gaming communitty.
(Offline)

07-28-2005, 12:11 PM	#8
general_koffi Doggy Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 566	I have as much right to all the gore, sexism, racism and violence I want as Little Timmy has to be protected from it, and judging by the First Amendment, those living in the USA do too. Little Timmy should be protected if it harms him, but that's not the gaming community's problem. GTA: San Andreas was rated 17+ without taking the LOCKED and PURPOSEFULLY EXCLUDED "prolonged sexual content" into account. Admittedly Rockstar should never have lied about the existence of such content, but the fact remains that it WAS NOT intended to be accessed by the end user. You might as well give a book an age restriction because people are drawing lewd pictures on the pages... it's the same concept taken to a new level by the way that computer programs work. Besides... if Little Timmy's parents think that it's alright for him to play a game which is rated 17+ and contains graphic violence, terrible swearing, racism, gore and the rest of it, but don't think he can play the same game rated 18+ containing fairly tame sex between two consenting adults, then perhaps Timmy and his parents are a bit beyond those whom the gaming industry should be concerned with protecting, hmm? The old saying, "God helps those who help themselves", comes to mind. __________________ Core 2 Duo E6300 @2.4Ghz\|Asus P5B\|DDR2-800 1*1024MB\|Gainward Geforce 8800GTS 320MB\|Seagate 200GB 7200.7 SATA HDD\|AOpen 400W PSU
(Offline)

07-29-2005, 04:00 AM	#9
SubZero Moderator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Below sealevel Posts: 9,663	I agree a 100% the rating systems are ver flawed. Also overhere... They are practicly not working. I still believe the main responsibility is with the parents. Rockstar doesn't deserve a pat on the back for the way they handled this but this uproar is rediculous. Whether or not there should be government is irrelevant in the beginning.. Parents shouldn't rely on it and if they are then that is another big flaw in the rating system. Like was allready concluded. The fact that someone hacked the game and exposed content that wasn't there for anyone to find in the first place cannot be blaimed on Rockstar. __________________ Main Rig: Asus P5K \| Intel Core Quad Q6600 \| Corsair XMS 6400-4gig eVGA GeForce 8800 GTX KO ACS3 \| X-Fi ExtremeMusic \| Z-5500D OCZ GameXstream 850W \| ThermalTake Aguila \| Logitech G-15 Logitech MX1000 \| Synology DS-207+ NAS (2x500WD-SATA2-RAID0)
(Offline)

07-29-2005, 07:56 AM	#10
grsamf Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,739	Parents shouldn't be able to rely on a system that was developed by the industry and proclaimed to be a guide to parents and others and provide information about the contents? What is the rating system for, then? Rockstar must take the blame for the code being there. They put it there. The original denial is an implicit recognition of their responsibility. And the comments by other game makers indicate that they agree that Rockstar has soiled the waters.
(Offline)

07-29-2005, 08:26 AM	#11
SubZero Moderator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Below sealevel Posts: 9,663	Don't get me wrong. I thought I mad that clear: I 100% agree with you on the rating system. Rockstar is now being hanged in the highest tree.. I wonder how many gamemakers have pulled a stunt like this and get away with it because those hidden things weren't discovered? Maybe the same gamemakers that now claim Rockstar has soiled the waters? Really... the scenes were hidden and only become available after hacking the game.... What are we talking about. The people making a big deal about this should be just as worried about the incredible violence in the game... have you played it? I mean... errr... I think the violence in doom 3 has a lesser impact since it is clear there that it is fiction and we are dealing with monsters.... Conclusion: Rating system: doesn't work. They need to develop technology to do age checks before playing the actual games... the technology is there... do parents care enough to spend money on it??? Nope... they don't and there is the problem. Or at least one of the problem. It keeps boiling down to the parents and not the gamemakers. If gamers demand something they will get it because in the end that is what sells games. If the gamers' parents demand a age control system they will develop it... __________________ Main Rig: Asus P5K \| Intel Core Quad Q6600 \| Corsair XMS 6400-4gig eVGA GeForce 8800 GTX KO ACS3 \| X-Fi ExtremeMusic \| Z-5500D OCZ GameXstream 850W \| ThermalTake Aguila \| Logitech G-15 Logitech MX1000 \| Synology DS-207+ NAS (2x500WD-SATA2-RAID0)
(Offline)

07-29-2005, 01:27 PM	#13
SubZero Moderator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Below sealevel Posts: 9,663	Yes, I was thinking DNA tester, blood analyzer, hey maybe they could even create a system which would check on-line with the police department to see whether the kid has some outstanding warrents..!! Oh, it should also check whether he/she visits church regularly... No seriously.... If things like this get so blown up maybe some sort of system is needed since the current rating system is not working as it is not working overhere. BTW: I don't disagree with your other points. __________________ Main Rig: Asus P5K \| Intel Core Quad Q6600 \| Corsair XMS 6400-4gig eVGA GeForce 8800 GTX KO ACS3 \| X-Fi ExtremeMusic \| Z-5500D OCZ GameXstream 850W \| ThermalTake Aguila \| Logitech G-15 Logitech MX1000 \| Synology DS-207+ NAS (2x500WD-SATA2-RAID0)
(Offline)

07-30-2005, 01:45 PM	#14
general_koffi Doggy Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 566	Yeah well, you do live in The Netherlands. Let's face it, you're going to be the last country on Earth to bring legislation against video games. Hey, I found a rather interesting article relating to the whole Hot Coffee affair. http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25015 Some important points raised there, I feel. __________________ Core 2 Duo E6300 @2.4Ghz\|Asus P5B\|DDR2-800 1*1024MB\|Gainward Geforce 8800GTS 320MB\|Seagate 200GB 7200.7 SATA HDD\|AOpen 400W PSU
(Offline)

07-30-2005, 02:21 PM	#15
JaGWiRE_abx Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,912	I think ag ood system would be like a digital passport check, just like how you give it to the boarder when you cross countries, except digital . __________________ DFI LAN PARTY UT NF4, Amd Athlon 3200+ 64 VENICE @ 2.5 ghz (250x4/x10), 1 GB (512x2 in dual channel, 150 divider) OCZ Premier 2.5-3-3-7 @ 2.5-3-3-8, Sapphire Raedon X800XL, Zalman 7700-alcu, OCZ MODSTREAM 450W, Thermaltake Tsunami Silver w/ Window, 1x 250GB WD Sata150 HD, 1x Lite-on DVD-R/RW 1x Pioneer DVD-R/RW, Bios 6-18, Windows XP
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode