Another witness to VIA woes

Yoda_abx · 05-09-2001, 01:11 AM

Team, this does not mean I am for one over the other, I am just posting this. I am just the Messenger here... This was taken from our friends at http://www.overclockers.com/

"A Lower Standard"
Ed Stroligo - 5/8/01

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have two groups of people out there, those who need machines that have to work, and those who don't.

If you're playing a game, you can live with a machine that fails on you every once in a while. Sure, that will get you mad at the time, but normally, it's no big deal. There's always the next game.

If every crash costs you money, though, you can't afford to have a machine that does that once a day or so. You can't afford to have CPUs blow up on you. You can't afford to hope that you'll get a "good" motherboard rather than a bad one.

That's the biggest problem we face right now with the Athlon systems. They just aren't reliable enough for the second type of person.

I don't read about Intel CPUs blowing up left and right. That was and is a great rarity. It happens too often with the Athlons. Granted, most of them are caused by users, but I've seen too many cases of these things dying for no good reason not to believe the reliability standard is a bit lower than what we were used to a few years back.

That's hardly the major problem, though.

Via is turning into a four-letter word for me. I feel like a nursing home attendant at times with these machines, continually feeding my machine medicine to fix one thing or another and keep my patient alive.

Put in this driver; stick in this fix, put in that fix sometimes, put in another fix another time, and if you don't perform the ritual exactly right, sometimes you'll have to start all over again. I'm installing a motherboard, not a bishop.

Nor is this a matter of hanging out on the edge. Most of that medicine is meant to get the machine to work right at any speed.

Even if you have or even know to have all the necessary drugs, that still doesn't guarantee you a healthy patient. Too many of these boards are just bad. Not most of them, too many of them.

To me, the issue is not "Does Via make a quality product" or "Will Via make a quality product?" it's "Can Via make a quality product, and does it even want to?" I think the answer is "No."

Remember, this is a company that had 5% of the chipset business until Intel decided to give it away. You don't expand tenfold in two years without big problems. Add to that AMD changing standards every five minutes, and you get what we got now.

None of this may bother the hotrodders at all, and that's perfectly OK. If it doesn't bother you, I'm not suggesting it should start.

But if AMD ever expects to get out of the hobbyist/consumer ghetto and wants to break into the business world, they have to do better than this.

Look at this from the perspective of an IT person. When it comes to desktop systems, he has one and only one top priority: no headaches, or at least no new ones. He couldn't care less if your Intel system is 10 or 15% slower than an AMD system; he's not using it. He couldn't care less if your Intel system costs more; he's not paying for it.

What he cares about very much, though, is how much effort he's going to have to make and how many headaches your computer system is going to cause him.

Right now, the AMD solution means more effort and more headaches. That's not a winning combo.

Right now, there is a tradeoff buying AMD platforms. Higher speed and lower cost in return for lower reliability, and that's a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for many, but not for all.

Right now, I can't say to someone whose hardware must work all the time, "Buy AMD." I just can't.

Now most people aren't really in that situation; reliability is desirable, not critical, and other factors are more important. That's fine. You may have an AMD machine that does everything you want flawlessly. Good for you, but you are not the universe.

Like many other people, I just want a machine that works without constant care and feeding and worrying, and I'm not getting that so far.

We're not going to give up looking at AMD by any means, but we're going to start taking a closer look at Intel systems over the next few months to see whether or not their new offerings are dropping the ball on reliability or not, too.

Sir Skully · 05-09-2001, 01:48 AM

Thanks Tom for the read! But for me I find reliability, and quality are two rare animals, in the whole of the computer world!!

anfo1369 · 05-09-2001, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tomp

<snip>
hehe, alot

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like many other people, I just want a machine that works without constant care and feeding and worrying, and I'm not getting that so far.

which is exactly hy i went with the cusl2 series mobo and Intel Pentium 3 cpu. Sometimes i leave my PC on for days, and no matter which operating system that i am running at the time, i don't want to sit in front of it and babysit it, hoping it won't crash right in front of me.
i have not read the article thus far, unbless all of that quote was it, lol. going to read it now.

luv that cusl2-c o' mine.

Mushkin Rules · 05-09-2001, 03:10 AM

Thanks for the good insight tomp, but for me I find realibility & speed both in my CUSL2 & A7V133

**Perry_abx** · 05-09-2001, 01:59 PM

Good article! Thanks for posting. I feel that guy's pain everyday. I can't wait for the last 3 AMD/Via machines we have at work to die and be gone forever. They crash far more frequently than our Intel chipset systems do and when their users get in trouble guess who gets the call. That's right! Lucky me!

simbatran · 05-10-2001, 02:16 PM

The problem is not necessarily VIA's. Their chipsets support both AMD and Intel Processors and I don't think it is that bad. VIA currently has a 55% of market for home PC core chipset, I doubt anyone can achieve that with a problem-proned product. Is the industry blind ?? Of course not. I have bought Intel product before besides this CUSL2-C that uses Intel chipset and was mad with their ignorance for support. They expect us to buy their new line of product every year instead of upgrading their drivers or software to be backward compatible. I could have gone with CUV4X as well.

tamarelle · 05-10-2001, 02:36 PM

Hey Budz!

Great posts as usual.

But let's not forget our fellow members here, some of whom have an AMD and ARE VERY HAPPY WITH IT.

I mention specifically Ozzie and Ski

(If I am out of line, please let me know okay?)...

It would really break my heart if we let silly divisions destroy the best website on the web

Tam

***Ozzie*** · 05-10-2001, 03:25 PM

Hi Tam

You are right, we need to be more accepting of those with other chipsets and processors. It is the future, and there's no need to turn it into a "us versus them" kind of thing. We're adults here - we can get along.

I have both like you said, and they both are very stable.
I was expecting to run into a few problems with my VIA chipset, but I have to say it is every bit as good as my CUSL2.

The way Intel is going about things these days, the AMD'ers will be getting stronger and better. And they will be contributing here. We will all benefit.

I really think that a few folks are going to have problems with whatever they decide to use, that's why we have this forum - to share and help.
You can certainly see there are no shortage of problems here with the CUSL2...

Yoda_abx · 05-10-2001, 03:34 PM

As stated above, this post was not intended to devour any of those relationships. Most of us will probably be upgrading to an AMD in the future

We all have to be open minded, that's why this site will include AMD CPUs as well....

Yoda_abx · 05-10-2001, 03:35 PM

Oh yeah, my other box is an AMD also...

**SubZero** · 05-10-2001, 03:42 PM

hehe... Not me if have to deal with VIA.

Then again, maybe their chipsets DID improve. I guess it was just a string of bad luck that killed my confidence in VIA.

Quote:

Originally posted by tomp
As stated above, this post was not intended to devour any of those relationships. Most of us will probably be upgrading to an AMD in the future

***Ozzie*** · 05-10-2001, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tomp
Oh yeah, my other box is an AMD also...

Finally did it, eh? I knew you couldn't stand it.
Let me guess - A7V133 & 1.2...

SZ - I would rather see someone besides VIA with the AMD, but I really have no complaints whatsoever.

tamarelle · 05-10-2001, 03:55 PM

Hi Tommie and SZ

I'm sorry, I really shouldn't have posted that one. I probably did more damage with my stupid know it all holier than thou post than anybody.

Tam

Yoda_abx · 05-10-2001, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozzie

Quote:

Originally posted by tomp
Oh yeah, my other box is an AMD also...

Finally did it, eh? I knew you couldn't stand it.
Let me guess - A7V133 & 1.2...

SZ - I would rather see someone besides VIA with the AMD, but I really have no complaints whatsoever.

No, it's an oldie but goodie

Teddy_abx · 05-10-2001, 04:09 PM

My first AMD system was a straight swap from my P3V4X (admittedly slightly unstable VIA chipset but I had a lot of happy stable days with it)

Lucky for me I just plugged the new ABIT KT7A into all my old components and added a shiny new 1.33 GHZ ATHLON T'BIRD. Flashed to the WZ BIOS NO reformatting NO VIA 4 in 1 reinstall and works great.
I have had one minor issue with losing the second secondary IDE channel & just as a precaution I lowered the speed a bit (I was trying to get 1500!) Problem went away.

Great performance and cant remember the last BSOD (Whoops I think that was my CUSL2-C & that was a long time ago anyway)

Besides I like to push my systems & they get very hot so when you are pushing CPU'S to the max unreliabilty is expected. Just back it off a bit to whats 100% stable (or as close as possible).

The KT133A is a heap better chipset than the Apollo Pro 133A & I think VIA has really got their **** together now & I hope they continue to prosper.

As for my CUSL2-C that too is very stable and Intel did a good job with that but my Athlon system is faster & cheaper with equal stability.
I too hope Intel will get their shi* together too and we will all benefit.

Teddy

Sorry for the rant!

05-09-2001, 01:11 AM	#1
Yoda_abx MODERATOR Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: United States of America Posts: 4,144	Team, this does not mean I am for one over the other, I am just posting this. I am just the Messenger here... This was taken from our friends at http://www.overclockers.com/ "A Lower Standard" Ed Stroligo - 5/8/01 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We have two groups of people out there, those who need machines that have to work, and those who don't. If you're playing a game, you can live with a machine that fails on you every once in a while. Sure, that will get you mad at the time, but normally, it's no big deal. There's always the next game. If every crash costs you money, though, you can't afford to have a machine that does that once a day or so. You can't afford to have CPUs blow up on you. You can't afford to hope that you'll get a "good" motherboard rather than a bad one. That's the biggest problem we face right now with the Athlon systems. They just aren't reliable enough for the second type of person. I don't read about Intel CPUs blowing up left and right. That was and is a great rarity. It happens too often with the Athlons. Granted, most of them are caused by users, but I've seen too many cases of these things dying for no good reason not to believe the reliability standard is a bit lower than what we were used to a few years back. That's hardly the major problem, though. Via is turning into a four-letter word for me. I feel like a nursing home attendant at times with these machines, continually feeding my machine medicine to fix one thing or another and keep my patient alive. Put in this driver; stick in this fix, put in that fix sometimes, put in another fix another time, and if you don't perform the ritual exactly right, sometimes you'll have to start all over again. I'm installing a motherboard, not a bishop. Nor is this a matter of hanging out on the edge. Most of that medicine is meant to get the machine to work right at any speed. Even if you have or even know to have all the necessary drugs, that still doesn't guarantee you a healthy patient. Too many of these boards are just bad. Not most of them, too many of them. To me, the issue is not "Does Via make a quality product" or "Will Via make a quality product?" it's "Can Via make a quality product, and does it even want to?" I think the answer is "No." Remember, this is a company that had 5% of the chipset business until Intel decided to give it away. You don't expand tenfold in two years without big problems. Add to that AMD changing standards every five minutes, and you get what we got now. None of this may bother the hotrodders at all, and that's perfectly OK. If it doesn't bother you, I'm not suggesting it should start. But if AMD ever expects to get out of the hobbyist/consumer ghetto and wants to break into the business world, they have to do better than this. Look at this from the perspective of an IT person. When it comes to desktop systems, he has one and only one top priority: no headaches, or at least no new ones. He couldn't care less if your Intel system is 10 or 15% slower than an AMD system; he's not using it. He couldn't care less if your Intel system costs more; he's not paying for it. What he cares about very much, though, is how much effort he's going to have to make and how many headaches your computer system is going to cause him. Right now, the AMD solution means more effort and more headaches. That's not a winning combo. Right now, there is a tradeoff buying AMD platforms. Higher speed and lower cost in return for lower reliability, and that's a perfectly acceptable tradeoff for many, but not for all. Right now, I can't say to someone whose hardware must work all the time, "Buy AMD." I just can't. Now most people aren't really in that situation; reliability is desirable, not critical, and other factors are more important. That's fine. You may have an AMD machine that does everything you want flawlessly. Good for you, but you are not the universe. Like many other people, I just want a machine that works without constant care and feeding and worrying, and I'm not getting that so far. We're not going to give up looking at AMD by any means, but we're going to start taking a closer look at Intel systems over the next few months to see whether or not their new offerings are dropping the ball on reliability or not, too. __________________ Sincerely, Yoda AKA: Usa_re8e1 (when gaming) Show your support for this site by visting our advertisers...
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05-09-2001, 01:48 AM	#2
Sir Skully ABX KNIGHT EXEMPLAR Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: USA-GA Posts: 25,980	Thanks Tom for the read! But for me I find reliability, and quality are two rare animals, in the whole of the computer world!!
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05-09-2001, 03:10 AM	#4
Mushkin Rules Registered User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Mushkin Tropical Island Posts: 2,563	Thanks for the good insight tomp, but for me I find realibility & speed both in my CUSL2 & A7V133 __________________ Show Your Supports by Clicking This Advertisers...
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05-09-2001, 01:59 PM	#5
Perry_abx Modulator Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Saint Paul, MN - USA Posts: 5,912	Way to go TOMP! Good article! Thanks for posting. I feel that guy's pain everyday. I can't wait for the last 3 AMD/Via machines we have at work to die and be gone forever. They crash far more frequently than our Intel chipset systems do and when their users get in trouble guess who gets the call. That's right! Lucky me!
(Offline)

05-10-2001, 02:16 PM	#6
simbatran Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 74	The problem is not necessarily VIA's. Their chipsets support both AMD and Intel Processors and I don't think it is that bad. VIA currently has a 55% of market for home PC core chipset, I doubt anyone can achieve that with a problem-proned product. Is the industry blind ?? Of course not. I have bought Intel product before besides this CUSL2-C that uses Intel chipset and was mad with their ignorance for support. They expect us to buy their new line of product every year instead of upgrading their drivers or software to be backward compatible. I could have gone with CUV4X as well.
(Offline)

05-10-2001, 02:36 PM	#7
tamarelle talented amateur Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Paris, France and Florida Posts: 3,265	Hey Budz! Great posts as usual. But let's not forget our fellow members here, some of whom have an AMD and ARE VERY HAPPY WITH IT. I mention specifically Ozzie and Ski (If I am out of line, please let me know okay?)... It would really break my heart if we let silly divisions destroy the best website on the web Tam __________________ Asus P5B Motherboard - Intel Q6600 @ 3.1 ghz ADATA 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) - EVGA 8800 GT PCI - XiFI Platinum - Seagate SATA 320 go, Seagate 320 go - SAMSUNG 18x DL+ Lightscribe DVD and Samsung 20x DL+ Lightscribe DVD - Windows VISTA 64 bit,Server 2003 and Vista Ultimate - Rosewill 19" LCD R912E monitor
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05-10-2001, 03:25 PM	#8
*Ozzie* missin' TQ Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Apple Valley, MN Posts: 10,242	Hi Tam You are right, we need to be more accepting of those with other chipsets and processors. It is the future, and there's no need to turn it into a "us versus them" kind of thing. We're adults here - we can get along. I have both like you said, and they both are very stable. I was expecting to run into a few problems with my VIA chipset, but I have to say it is every bit as good as my CUSL2. The way Intel is going about things these days, the AMD'ers will be getting stronger and better. And they will be contributing here. We will all benefit. I really think that a few folks are going to have problems with whatever they decide to use, that's why we have this forum - to share and help. You can certainly see there are no shortage of problems here with the CUSL2... __________________ Have you supported your forum today? Change is the only constant in life
(Offline)

05-10-2001, 03:34 PM	#9
Yoda_abx MODERATOR Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: United States of America Posts: 4,144	As stated above, this post was not intended to devour any of those relationships. Most of us will probably be upgrading to an AMD in the future We all have to be open minded, that's why this site will include AMD CPUs as well.... __________________ Sincerely, Yoda AKA: Usa_re8e1 (when gaming) Show your support for this site by visting our advertisers...
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05-10-2001, 03:35 PM	#10
Yoda_abx MODERATOR Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: United States of America Posts: 4,144	Oh yeah, my other box is an AMD also... __________________ Sincerely, Yoda AKA: Usa_re8e1 (when gaming) Show your support for this site by visting our advertisers...
(Offline)

05-10-2001, 03:55 PM	#13
tamarelle talented amateur Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Paris, France and Florida Posts: 3,265	Hi Tommie and SZ I'm sorry, I really shouldn't have posted that one. I probably did more damage with my stupid know it all holier than thou post than anybody. Tam __________________ Asus P5B Motherboard - Intel Q6600 @ 3.1 ghz ADATA 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) - EVGA 8800 GT PCI - XiFI Platinum - Seagate SATA 320 go, Seagate 320 go - SAMSUNG 18x DL+ Lightscribe DVD and Samsung 20x DL+ Lightscribe DVD - Windows VISTA 64 bit,Server 2003 and Vista Ultimate - Rosewill 19" LCD R912E monitor
(Offline)

05-10-2001, 04:09 PM	#15
Teddy_abx Registered User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Canberra OZ Posts: 17	My first AMD system was a straight swap from my P3V4X (admittedly slightly unstable VIA chipset but I had a lot of happy stable days with it) Lucky for me I just plugged the new ABIT KT7A into all my old components and added a shiny new 1.33 GHZ ATHLON T'BIRD. Flashed to the WZ BIOS NO reformatting NO VIA 4 in 1 reinstall and works great. I have had one minor issue with losing the second secondary IDE channel & just as a precaution I lowered the speed a bit (I was trying to get 1500!) Problem went away. Great performance and cant remember the last BSOD (Whoops I think that was my CUSL2-C & that was a long time ago anyway) Besides I like to push my systems & they get very hot so when you are pushing CPU'S to the max unreliabilty is expected. Just back it off a bit to whats 100% stable (or as close as possible). The KT133A is a heap better chipset than the Apollo Pro 133A & I think VIA has really got their **** together now & I hope they continue to prosper. As for my CUSL2-C that too is very stable and Intel did a good job with that but my Athlon system is faster & cheaper with equal stability. I too hope Intel will get their shi* together too and we will all benefit. Teddy Sorry for the rant!
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