Questions of Understanding

[Miles]

I have stated here that I was doing some research into a new system...I was planning to take Mushkin Rules' advice and wait on the new NVIDIA chipset to make it's debut which looks like it will be sometime in late July or August.

I wanted to get an Athlon 4 for this system which I have read will have less power requirements thus less temperature concerns. I thought I had a good handle on what the Athlon 4 was until yesterday when I talked to a guy at Monarch computers who is supposed to be the Athlon GURU for this part of the country.

I had understood that the Athlon 4 was to be basically a desktop version of the new Athlon MP chip...this guy tell me that next AMD chip in desktop form will be something called the Mustang and that the MP is the chip referred to as the Palomino...I'm just a bit confused now (and most of the time for that matter). He said the chip would be available in about 45-60 days...Does anyone have any information in support or contradiction to this...As usual, thanks in advance...and thanks to all of you that have helped me to have a better understanding of the CUSL2-C.

[Ozzie]

The Athlon 4 is NOT the new model that has lower power requirements. It is simply an extension of the current line.
My belief is they simply are hand picked for better overclocking.
I could be wrong there, but it looks that way.

The new Athlon that will be coming out (not here yet) will have the lower power requirements and some are saying they are capable of 1.8. The name seems to be changing with the weather.

Hang in there - if you want the newer model you'll still have to wait a bit.
Also newer boards are coming out that will change everything - these need to be evaluated b/4 knowing which one's are good.

The IWILL boys are rumored to be working on something that will be unbelieveable...

[Miles]

Thanks Ozzie...I'm aaaaa wwwwaiiting patientlyyyyyy!

[Ozzie]

I know you're anxious... this stuff will be pretty exciting when it does hit.
Then of course, the prices are always higher at first too.
I hope the competition keeps them in line.
I also think there will be so many choices that you'll have to sift thru a lot of new information.

Patience Grasshopper...

[Mushkin Rules]

Meanwhile while waiting, see this test:
AMD Athlon 1.4 GHz and Duron 950 MHz Review
http://www.amdmb.com/article-display.php?ArticleID=89

And

Palomino Overclocking
http://www.kumagaya.or.jp/~touma/repoe/palo-1494.html

[Utahusker]

Milesc3
Here is an article and review from overclockers.com, You might find it usefull.
aspenhusker



"AMD Palomino - First Look"
Joe Citarella - 6/23/01



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SUMMARY: First look at AMD's Palomino indicates marginal performance improvements over the T-Bird, but will the extra cost justify a switch?



I am very interested in the Palomino, mainly due to the inclusion of an on-die thermal diode in its core, similar to Intel's diode. I think this will help users more accurately monitor CPU temps compared to using in-socket thermistors. Curiosity being what it is, I decided to buy one (1200 MHz) so we could begin to explore its possibilities. I searched Pricewatch and found only a handful of vendors who have Palominos, and only one who had it in stock to ship - Monarch Computers.

Right now the Palomino is going for premium pricing, so if you are interested, I would definitely wait a while.

The first thing of interest was the diode, and I went to AMD's spec sheets to figure out where it was. It's located on pins S7/U7; these pins are not connected to anything on the T-Bird. This means that unless your motherboard manufacturer decided to implement the Palomino's diode (highly unlikely), the current crop of Socket A motherboards DO NOT support on-die temp monitoring. If anyone knows of one that does, drop me a line.

Now I have a challenge for an EE out there:

I know that an external circuit which can attach to these pins is possible - go HERE for one that works on Intel's CPUs. So, if some kind, knowledgeable soul is up to designing one to retrofit a current motherboard, I think we would all be indebted to him. I'll be out of town for a couple of weeks, so please Email Ed on this one. Also, this has to be made of readily available parts.

Palomino codes start with "AHX", as shown here. The "HX" is the key identifier.




Bridges - LOTS of Bridges
This particular Palomino is unlocked:



In addition, there are more bridges on the Palomino than on T-Birds and Durons - we don't know yet what all these do, but I'm sure the curious ones will start to open and close these to find out what they do - going to be fun!




Palomino vs T-Bird
For a first look, I concentrated on temperature and performance differences. We will be thrashing out more tests on this, so regard these right now as a peek at how they compare.

First thing I looked at were the power requirements between them:



Power Comparison
CPU Watts Max/Avg Palomino T-Bird % Difference
1000 MHz 46.1/41.3 54/49 -14.6/-15.7%
1200 MHz 54.7/49.1 66/59 -17.1/-16.8%


This is clearly a more efficient chip for AMD, with power reductions of about 15-17%.

To determine how well this translates to a cooler CPU, I ran the Palomino against my T-Bird 1133 running at 1200 MHz and 1.8 volts. I used a watercooling setup for this test:



Temperature Tests
Temperature At: Palomino T-Bird % Difference
Waterblock 30.0 C 31.9 C -6.0 %
CPU Back 37.1 C 40.1 C -7.5 %
In-Socket Thermistor 35 C 38 C -7.9 %
Ambient 24.0 C 24.1 C -0.4%


You have to expect some difference in heat radiated based on CPU watts, and the reduction does pay off in reduced temps to some degree, but don't expect to see a major difference. Let's say that you might see something like a 5-10% temp reduction, but with efficient cooling, this translates to maybe a 2-5C difference; Intel still leads on this one Big Time.


Performance Tests
Benchmark Palomino T-Bird % Difference
SiSoft CPU 3346/1684 3345/1671 NA/0.8%
SiSoft MultiMedia 4081/5672 4083/5603 NA/1.2%
SiSoft Memory 503/545 458/584 9.8/-6.7%
Quake 600x480 151.4/155.9 146.8/149.4 3.1/4.4%
3DMark 2000 6570 6537 0.5%


The Memory Bandwidth scores are interesting - one up, one down. The performance results, as usual, will vary by application. Overall, the Palomino does show some improvements, but I seriously doubt users will see it on screen; certainly not enough to justify the upgrade expense at similar speeds.


CONCLUSIONS
At first blush, the Palomino does have marginal advantages over a T-Bird at the same speed and voltage, but not enough to justify a swap. However, for those considering a major upgrade (for example, from a Duron), the Palomino is worth a look BUT, whether pricing differentials justify the Palomino over the T-Bird is up to each user. How the Palomino stacks up in overclocking potential will be explored in another article.

Right now, I don't see a compelling price/performance benefit.

Email Joe

[Miles]

Thanks Aspenhusker, that cleared alot of things up for me...Still from what I am hearing the Palomino and the Athlon 4 desktop chip are two different chips entirely...the Athlon 4 Chip code named "Mustang" is still a few months away from hitting the streets.

BTW I'm getting this news from Spencer at Monarch Computers, one of the largest Athlon distributors in the country...he is their "Guru" on AMD products.