Help with upconverting DVD player???

[fvbounty]

I'm looking for a DVD upconverting player for my new 32 inch lcd HD TV, is it worth paying the extra money? I have HDMI connection on the TV and would like to take advantage of it. There are two players I'm looking at the Panosonic DVD-S77S or the Sony DVP-NS975V, any help would be great I'm a complete Noob on this stuff....

[FB]

no idea about that stuff. i would think Component Video output with a Progressive Scan player would be good.

I watched a few movies on my dad's tv this weekend, with a cheap progressive scan dvd player, and they looked awesome. 42" Samsung ED Plasma

[3 of 7]

While I have no experience with either of these players, I would go with the Panasonic, simply based on the fact that most (not all) Sony products I have bought in the last few years are either buggy or complete junk (the exception being my Sony home theater that I only got because Costco had them dirt cheap)
For years I was a die-hard Sony fan, but after 2 cd drives and a burner failing and my camera needing a whole lens replacement (thank god it was still under warranty) I personally just can't support this company anymore.

*******edit***** I forgot the 32" Wega TV that my wife and I carried into the house only to find it didn't work......

[fvbounty]

Originally Posted by 3 of 7

While I have no experience with either of these players, I would go with the Panasonic, simply based on the fact that most (not all) Sony products I have bought in the last few years are either buggy or complete junk (the exception being my Sony home theater that I only got because Costco had them dirt cheap)
For years I was a die-hard Sony fan, but after 2 cd drives and a burner failing and my camera needing a whole lens replacement (thank god it was still under warranty) I personally just can't support this company anymore.

*******edit***** I forgot the 32" Wega TV that my wife and I carried into the house only to find it didn't work......

I just got off Amazon's website and the reviews of the Sony where awful won't be getting that one for sure....

[fvbounty]

Originally Posted by FB

no idea about that stuff. i would think Component Video output with a Progressive Scan player would be good.

I watched a few movies on my dad's tv this weekend, with a cheap progressive scan dvd player, and they looked awesome. 42" Samsung ED Plasma

From what little I read about it, its suppose to be almost HD quailty by upconverting the image to 1080I, looks like lots of reading ahead, ever player I have looked at has there ups and downs, trying to stay under $150. I've got a JVC progressive scan on my 35inch xbr crt in the front room and it looks great (only $79)....

[FB]

Originally Posted by fvbounty

From what little I read about it, its suppose to be almost HD quailty by upconverting the image to 1080I, looks like lots of reading ahead, ever player I have looked at has there ups and downs, trying to stay under $150. I've got a JVC progressive scan on my 35inch xbr crt in the front room and it looks great (only $79)....

i don't know about 1080i, but i watched part of a movie in 480i before i realised it was not in 480p mode. To put it bluntly, i thought it looked like crap

if you can get something that does 720p, you will be better off because that should be higher quality than interlaced

[Sierra_abx]

Here's another Panasonic model you might want to look at. Mostly favorable reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...onics&v=glance

I stumbled upon the review while shopping around yesterday for a DVD player.

[fvbounty]

Originally Posted by Sierra

Here's another Panasonic model you might want to look at. Mostly favorable reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...onics&v=glance

I stumbled upon the review while shopping around yesterday for a DVD player.

Thanks I was looking at that one also, thats the higher end model of the DVD-S77S which had good reviews, the only thing about Panasonic is not really user friendly...

[Sierra_abx]

Panasonic generally gives you good bang for the buck. If you have money to burn, look at the Denon players.

[fvbounty]

Originally Posted by Sierra

Panasonic generally gives you good bang for the buck. If you have money to burn, look at the Denon players.

I probably go with the Panasonic, the Denon are a little out of my price range....

[FB]

Originally Posted by fvbounty

I probably go with the Panasonic, the Denon are a little out of my price range....

panny's are nice, i have one about 3 years old now and works awesome

[fvbounty]

Originally Posted by FB

panny's are nice, i have one about 3 years old now and works awesome

Thanks for all the input.....

[SupDawg]

I agree with the Panasonic, but IMO the upconverting DVD players are just a marketing hyperbole. You would be better off bying a better end DVD player with a better interlacer.

"The next bit of fun and games comes when DVD player manufacturers figured out they could sell players for more money if they put a de-interlacing circuit in the players. They could then send a 480p signal to the TV. They could do this because their cronies (another division of the same company) producing the TVs set them up to take a 480p signal as input, thus by-passing the internal de-interlacing circuit. The logic behind all this was that the DVDs that were being recorded also include special information as to how to do a better job of de-interlacing which the player could see as part of it's processing to produce an analog TV image from the digital data recorded on the DVD. Thus, and this is the important bit, THE DVD PLAYER COULD DO A BETTER JOB OF DE-INTERLACING!

So now you had "progressive" DVD players that would take 480i DVDs -- the only kind that exist -- and produce 480p analog TV signals. The TVs still had their own de-interlacers to handle regular TV signals (which they needed to de-interlace to make their "line doublers" work).

So people would now pay for TWO de-interlacing circuits, plus the extra profit built into bleeding edge technology. And bleeding-edge it was. The idea was fine but the execution was often dreadful. The net result was that the de-interlacing in the DVD players was often WORSE than what the TVs could do on their own. For a variety of technical reasons, de-interlacing the wide range of DVD content out there is a tough job, and on top of that the engineering was often shoddy. So folks would spend the money for a progressive scan DVD player and then turn off the progressive option and use it like a 480i DVD player because that produced a better picture. The picture was "better" because some data was effectively being filtered out -- discarded -- and thus the TV's de-interlacer produced less noticeable glitches. In fact, many DVD players were having trouble just decoding the digital data on the DVD properly. If you'd like to see the sorts of problems that can occur, check out the remarkably detailed information in the DVD benchmarks section of the Secrets of Home Theater web site."

"The next big deal is the "up-scaling" or "up-converting" (a misused marketing term) DVD players. The idea is to get people to buy new DVD players for their new HDTV-ready TVs by doing the same trick they did with the progressive players. I.e., let's put the scaler in the player!

Now remember the TV still needs its own scaler for standard def TV. And fixed pixel displays need a scaler for HDTV as well because HDTV comes in different broadcast resolutions which need to be converted to the "native" resolution of the display.

But heck, if you are going to buy an HDTV-ready TV and "high definition" DVD discs, then you certainly don't want to screw up the vibe by playing them on an old "progressive" player. You want a high-tech, high definition, "up-scaling" player! Just in case you've lost track here, the content on the DVDs is *STILL* only 480i in all this.

The drooling from the hardware guys was so great that it took them a while to hear the screams from the content guys. The folks who make their money selling DVD discs don't want high-res content coming out of the players because folks will just make copies of movies and not buy their discs! The HDTV broadcast networks face the same dilemma but they are already resigned to a business model that makes money by selling commercial time and subscriptions. The DVD guys need to schlep discs.

So the boys in building "A" got together with the boys in building "B" and came up with a solution. We'll allow up-scaling DVD players but only if the high res output is limited to digital connections that we can control with a copy protection scheme. The bosses in building "C" got big grins.

Well it turns out there was a digital cabling standard already in place called DVI. It was used to connect computers to monitors and since HDTV-ready TVs now were built to the high bandwidth and sync-rates needed by computers, many already had DVI inputs so that folks could use them as computer monitors as well.

All that was needed was to clamp a copy protection boot on that DVI input. This rejoices in the name of "HDCP".

An HDCP-compliant source device will refuse to make a digital connection to a display or intervening device which is not also HDCP-compliant. Analog connections will work regardless -- but only at conventional, lower resolutions.

So voila you now had TVs with digital inputs and DVD players with fancy new, up-scaling, high-definition digital outputs. Of course there were some older TVs out there with DVI that was NOT HDCP compliant, but the industry had an answer to that. Buy a new TV. Or use your fancy new up-scaling DVD player just as if it were a previous generation progressive player by connecting it via analog cables at 480p resolution. Since it said "up-scaling" on the box the image must be better, right?

DVI had other problems as well due to it's computer-based heritage. It didn't carry audio for example. So new HDMI cabling was invented to deal with that and to remove some other confusions inherent in DVI. HDMI is, more or less, DVI plus digital audio plus HDCP and with connection standards and protocols more or less attuned to the home theater market.

But all that techy, geeky stuff aside, the big news was that these players could put out glorious 720p or 1080i signals from a DVD disc via those HDMI or DVI connections! "Glorious" here being a marketing term of art. The important thing to remember, the thing I have to keep stressing because I see that buying frenzy gleam coming into your eye again, is that THE CONTENT ON THE DVDs IS ONLY 480i AND NO SCHEME CAN INVENT DATA THAT ISN'T THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

The 480i data decoded from the DVD first gets de-interlaced to 480p. Then it gets scaled up either to 720p or to 1080p. If the desired output signal is 720p then you are done. If the desired output signal is 1080i then the signal gets RE-interlaced to 1080i. The TV receives a digital 720p or 1080i signal from the player and SCALES IT AGAIN to match the native resolution of the display.".

Taken from here.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=477740

[fvbounty]

Originally Posted by SupDawg

I agree with the Panasonic, but IMO the upconverting DVD players are just a marketing hyperbole. You would be better off bying a better end DVD player with a better interlacer.

"The next bit of fun and games comes when DVD player manufacturers figured out they could sell players for more money if they put a de-interlacing circuit in the players. They could then send a 480p signal to the TV. They could do this because their cronies (another division of the same company) producing the TVs set them up to take a 480p signal as input, thus by-passing the internal de-interlacing circuit. The logic behind all this was that the DVDs that were being recorded also include special information as to how to do a better job of de-interlacing which the player could see as part of it's processing to produce an analog TV image from the digital data recorded on the DVD. Thus, and this is the important bit, THE DVD PLAYER COULD DO A BETTER JOB OF DE-INTERLACING!

So now you had "progressive" DVD players that would take 480i DVDs -- the only kind that exist -- and produce 480p analog TV signals. The TVs still had their own de-interlacers to handle regular TV signals (which they needed to de-interlace to make their "line doublers" work).

So people would now pay for TWO de-interlacing circuits, plus the extra profit built into bleeding edge technology. And bleeding-edge it was. The idea was fine but the execution was often dreadful. The net result was that the de-interlacing in the DVD players was often WORSE than what the TVs could do on their own. For a variety of technical reasons, de-interlacing the wide range of DVD content out there is a tough job, and on top of that the engineering was often shoddy. So folks would spend the money for a progressive scan DVD player and then turn off the progressive option and use it like a 480i DVD player because that produced a better picture. The picture was "better" because some data was effectively being filtered out -- discarded -- and thus the TV's de-interlacer produced less noticeable glitches. In fact, many DVD players were having trouble just decoding the digital data on the DVD properly. If you'd like to see the sorts of problems that can occur, check out the remarkably detailed information in the DVD benchmarks section of the Secrets of Home Theater web site."

"The next big deal is the "up-scaling" or "up-converting" (a misused marketing term) DVD players. The idea is to get people to buy new DVD players for their new HDTV-ready TVs by doing the same trick they did with the progressive players. I.e., let's put the scaler in the player!

Now remember the TV still needs its own scaler for standard def TV. And fixed pixel displays need a scaler for HDTV as well because HDTV comes in different broadcast resolutions which need to be converted to the "native" resolution of the display.

But heck, if you are going to buy an HDTV-ready TV and "high definition" DVD discs, then you certainly don't want to screw up the vibe by playing them on an old "progressive" player. You want a high-tech, high definition, "up-scaling" player! Just in case you've lost track here, the content on the DVDs is *STILL* only 480i in all this.

The drooling from the hardware guys was so great that it took them a while to hear the screams from the content guys. The folks who make their money selling DVD discs don't want high-res content coming out of the players because folks will just make copies of movies and not buy their discs! The HDTV broadcast networks face the same dilemma but they are already resigned to a business model that makes money by selling commercial time and subscriptions. The DVD guys need to schlep discs.

So the boys in building "A" got together with the boys in building "B" and came up with a solution. We'll allow up-scaling DVD players but only if the high res output is limited to digital connections that we can control with a copy protection scheme. The bosses in building "C" got big grins.

Well it turns out there was a digital cabling standard already in place called DVI. It was used to connect computers to monitors and since HDTV-ready TVs now were built to the high bandwidth and sync-rates needed by computers, many already had DVI inputs so that folks could use them as computer monitors as well.

All that was needed was to clamp a copy protection boot on that DVI input. This rejoices in the name of "HDCP".

An HDCP-compliant source device will refuse to make a digital connection to a display or intervening device which is not also HDCP-compliant. Analog connections will work regardless -- but only at conventional, lower resolutions.

So voila you now had TVs with digital inputs and DVD players with fancy new, up-scaling, high-definition digital outputs. Of course there were some older TVs out there with DVI that was NOT HDCP compliant, but the industry had an answer to that. Buy a new TV. Or use your fancy new up-scaling DVD player just as if it were a previous generation progressive player by connecting it via analog cables at 480p resolution. Since it said "up-scaling" on the box the image must be better, right?

DVI had other problems as well due to it's computer-based heritage. It didn't carry audio for example. So new HDMI cabling was invented to deal with that and to remove some other confusions inherent in DVI. HDMI is, more or less, DVI plus digital audio plus HDCP and with connection standards and protocols more or less attuned to the home theater market.

But all that techy, geeky stuff aside, the big news was that these players could put out glorious 720p or 1080i signals from a DVD disc via those HDMI or DVI connections! "Glorious" here being a marketing term of art. The important thing to remember, the thing I have to keep stressing because I see that buying frenzy gleam coming into your eye again, is that THE CONTENT ON THE DVDs IS ONLY 480i AND NO SCHEME CAN INVENT DATA THAT ISN'T THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

The 480i data decoded from the DVD first gets de-interlaced to 480p. Then it gets scaled up either to 720p or to 1080p. If the desired output signal is 720p then you are done. If the desired output signal is 1080i then the signal gets RE-interlaced to 1080i. The TV receives a digital 720p or 1080i signal from the player and SCALES IT AGAIN to match the native resolution of the display.".

Taken from here.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=477740

Thanks I've been to that site this morning and my eyes are starting to hurt from all the reading....:sad: :sad: :eek:

My native resoulation is 1366 x 768 on my lcd tv....

[SupDawg]

Here are some pics, can you tell me which one is 480p, and which one is 1080i "upconvert?"

Spoiler:

1080i

Spoiler:

480p