ABXZone Computer  Forums



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-08-2003, 11:02 AM   #16
fireball_abx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 134
Great Job! It is what I have been looking for and it helps me to understand what I need to do to squeeze more from my pc. Thanks.
__________________
CPU: Intel P4 2.4C @2.6 (FSB 217)
Mobo: P4S800D-E Deluxe
BIOS: 1012
RAM: OCZ EL PC3500 4 x 256 @ 2-5-3-2 (FSB 217)
Video: ATI AIW 9600Pro 128Meg 8xAGP (Retail)
HD: Seagate 80G SATA - Connected to SATA1 (Raid 0 - C: & D: )
Seagate 80G SATA - Connected to SATA2 (Raid 0 - C: & D: )
Seagate 80G SATA - connected to SATA3
DVD: LG DVD 4040B
Pioneer DVD106s
LAN: on-board
Sound: On-board
SiSoft 2004 Memory: 50xx/50xx Buffered
25xx/27xx UnBuffered
(Offline)  

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]
Old 08-08-2003, 11:20 AM   #17
CrackFerret
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7
Mike, care to explain memory timings or should a newb such as myself only worry about messing with the FSB and FSB ratio for now?

Recently I was reading an article on overclocking the 2.4c on an IC7-G. They mentioned their timings of CAS2 2,2,5 on DDR 400 memory, they didnt say what brand.

I have no idea what CAS 2 or the 3 numbers following it means. Will info provided with my kingston 3200 mem or my IC7-G mobo explain these things?

Last edited by CrackFerret; 08-08-2003 at 11:48 AM..
(Offline)  
Old 08-08-2003, 01:30 PM   #18
specmike
Yes, Yellowbeard
 
specmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Metro Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 2,647
Quote:
Originally posted by CrackFerret
Mike, care to explain memory timings or should a newb such as myself on worry about messing with the FSB and FSB ratio for now?
I'll give it a shot sooner or later but there are better here and other places than me to do it. Adrian Wong does a great job here

Essentially, ANY latency inside a computer means some action or process is waiting for, or dependent upon, another action or process to finish before certain instructions can be completed (I think). Ideally, a computer would have no latency.

RAM timings ideally are lowered (smaller numbers on RAM timings = less latency) to their lowest points for fastest performance. Some RAM is better than others at running with low latencies. Some systems are more dependent upon low latencies for best performance. For example, the current AMD systems gain way more performance from low latencies that the current Intel 875/865.

These Intel boards that I am speaking of seem to be getting BEST performance from pure high FSB speed + high RAM frequencies. But, physics limit us (I don't know enough specifics to splain it clearly Lucy) and the RAM companies cannot yet get the low latencies we are used to in the PC3700 and PC4000 DIMMs. The PC3200 and PC3500 simply has lower latency. However, as the results will show, memory bandwidth and performance is still increasing with the PC3700 and PC4000 RAM with higher latencies over the PC3200 and PC3500 with lower latencies.

That's why I sort of drew the line there at the PC3200/PC3500 vs PC3700/PC4000. IMO, you can use that to select the RAM that best suits your wants/needs and match it logically with the right CPU.

To illustrate my point, I got some prices together from Googlegear.com and Newegg.com.

Intel P4c CPUs
3.2c..........$655
3.0c..........$393
2.8c..........$266
2.6c..........$211
2.4c..........$170

RAM Prices
Frequency...............Corsair...............OCZ
PC4000 2 x 512mb...$380..............(no price available but I'd say close to Corsair)
PC3700 2 X 512mb...$315...........2 X 256mb.....$230
PC3500 2 x 512mb...$363...............$330
PC3200LL 2 x 512mb...$312...........EL...$300

Let's say now that you want the absolute best performance to be had on an Intel D875PBZ Canterwood board. Intel boards are noted to be very stable, very fast at stock speeds, but will not OC well at all, 4% at most on that particular model. My pick would then be a 3.2ghz CPU with either the Corsair3200LL or OCZ3200EL 2 x 512mb kits.
Corsair+CPU=$967( @ 2,3,2,6 timings)
OCZ+CPU=$955( @ 2,3,2,6 timings)
If you bought PC4000 RAM, it will NOT run the timings tight, about 2.5, 4,3,5 at best based on my tests of the Corsair. And, the MOBO cannot push the FSB up to get the RAM to run at a FSB of 250. Most likely, the CPU cannot run a FSB 250 according to Hawk's et al results.

Corsair 3200LL at DDR400 will outperform Corsair PC4000 being run at DDR400. I don't know of any combinations that will beat a 3.2c+3200LL/EL as far as CPU frequency and nice tight low latency RAM at FSB200/DDR400. So with this combo of CPU+RAM, you have saved either $68 or $80 by buying the "correct" RAM. You have also saved yourself the headache of trying to underclock your PC4000 RAM and/or run it at timings you expect for $380 but that it CANNOT do. Other opinions please.

Now let's say you want an average MOBO that will OC somewhat well but you are on a budget of $600 to upgrade. You have gotten yourself an Abit IS7-E for about $100, leaving $500 for RAM+CPU. It makes no sense to me to spend an inordinate amount of money on either RAM or CPU, you need a good balance. So, I'd say get the OCZ 2 x 256mb PC3700 kit for $230 and that leaves $270 for CPU.
Abit IS-7$100
2.8c.......$266
OCZ.......$230
TOTAL:....$599...( $1 under budget)
And, you could save $96 and still be able to OC VERY WELL with a 2.4c. Or, you could spend the $96 on a full gig of RAM.
Abit IS-7 $100
2.4c........$170
Corsair...$315...(PC3700 TwinX1024 kit, 2 x 512mb)
TOTAL.....$585
See the IS-7 review HERE by Prometheus.

So now, let's say that you absolutely have to spend all the money possible on a CPU+RAM combo and stick it in a Gigabyte GA-8KNXP Ultra MOBO. You get a 3.2c and either brand of PC4000 for Corsair's listed price @ Googlegear of $380.
MOBO...$372
3.2c.....$655
RAM.....$380
TOTAL:...$1407 with $1035 (RAM+CPU) spent on a combination that most likely will NOT work that well together. It will work together but take the MAX FSB speed that Hawk was able to get with his 3.2c, of 238. That's DDR476. at a CPU frequency of 3.7ghz. Hawk has also run a 2.4c in the area of 3.25ghz with PC4000 OCd to about FSB 275/DDR550. The RAM bandwidth between DDR476 and DDR550 is SUBSTANTIAL. I dont' think that there is a 3.0c or a 3.2c on the planet that will run a FSB275 outside of a liquid nitrogen cooling system if even then.

So, let's say you still want CPU speed so you buy a 2.6c for $211, SAVING $444 over the 3.2c, and you will have more memory bandwidth with the cheaper CPU. And, you will probably be able to run the 2.6c at 3.2ghz or faster but with enough FSB to really use the RAM.

Possibly the same type of results with a 2.8c for $266 saving $389. Hawk got a FSB of 266 (which = 3.2ghz) out of one. If you are so lucky, you have your CPU at FSB266 and RAM at DDR524, still spanking the bandwidth you'll likely get from the 3.2c at FSB238/DDR476 while saving that $389. Gee what could you buy with that? Another gig or RAM? A couple of Raptors?

The examples are endless but I hope these are adequate. I've applied my logic here. There are endless debates about brands but I am not debating OCZ vs Corsair or Asus vs Albatron etc. That's up to you, just put a sensible combination of parts into it and spend your money wisely.

As always, gurus, experts, soothsayers, here it is, fire away!

Happy Computing, Mike.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CORSAIR TECH SUPPORT
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by specmike; 08-09-2003 at 11:42 AM..
(Offline)  
Old 08-08-2003, 02:14 PM   #19
specmike
Yes, Yellowbeard
 
specmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Metro Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 2,647
Quote:
Originally posted by CrackFerret
Wait a sec, I have an IC7-G comming soon with 512 kit of kingston pc3200 DDR400, and a 2.4c p4.

Sounds to me that you are saying that if I want to oc to 3gig I should consider getting faster ram and OC at 1:1.

Is it a bad idea to try and reach 3gig with pc3200 memory?

Should I get some pc4000 before OC'ing?

If I read right, a 5:4 ratio means that with a 2.4c and fsb bus at 250 the 2.4 will be OC to 3gig and the memory runs at a stock 400 (when using pc3200). Is this right?

Sorry I'm new to this.
Depending on how much of an OC, yes, faster RAM will be far better. The OCZ 3700 Gold 2 X 256 kits are doing fanstastic here. I have not seen the OCZ PC4000 yet but it's on the way. The Corsair PC4000 is out and mine is awesome.

I'm guessing that on average here, most PC3200 will OC to a MAX of about 210-220mhz, or DDR420-DDR440 so if you want more than that buy faster than PC3200/DDR400.

Good luck, Mike.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CORSAIR TECH SUPPORT
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Offline)  
Old 08-08-2003, 11:01 PM   #20
vegetto34
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 60
Quote:
I guess the industry, or you, says different?
Industry. DDR533 RAM is called PC4200. Also the RIMM4200 RDRAM. Also all the promos with the 533mhz and PC-1066 RDRAM mention 4.2gig/sec peak bandwidth. All you DDR users have been in the dust for quite a while.

It was as easy as surfing over to any PC hardware store and searching for PC4200 memory.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Offline)  
Old 08-09-2003, 12:54 AM   #21
specmike
Yes, Yellowbeard
 
specmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Metro Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 2,647
Quote:
Originally posted by vegetto34
Industry. DDR533 RAM is called PC4200. Also the RIMM4200 RDRAM. Also all the promos with the 533mhz and PC-1066 RDRAM mention 4.2gig/sec peak bandwidth. All you DDR users have been in the dust for quite a while.

It was as easy as surfing over to any PC hardware store and searching for PC4200 memory.
I was not concerned enough to surf anywhere but thanx for the clarification. I wonder why they rounded down to 4200 from 4256? May have been some dust on the spex and they couldn't read them
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CORSAIR TECH SUPPORT
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Offline)  
Old 08-09-2003, 02:22 AM   #22
CrocHammer
Croc - OlderOvercrocker
 
CrocHammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Surrey, BC
Posts: 1,345
That Corsair 2 x 512 is lookin' good. I wonder how the OCZ version will compare. I am thinking I would like 2 x 512 for the new board.
__________________
C2D6600 on Asus P5B Deluxe with ArcticCooling Pro7 heatsink fan
EVGA 8800GTS with Samsung 226BW
4 x 1024 Mushkin HP2-6400
1XS. Barracuda 640 gig 7200.11
2 x S. Barracuda 320 gig 7200.10 in RAID O
LG sATA DVD/RW
Logitech G5 Laser mouse & G11 keyboard
Corsair HX-520 watt modular PSU
Lian-li PC60U -updated mod & lighting
4 x 80mm inlet and 2 x 80mm exit fans on Hexus fan controller
(Offline)  
Old 08-09-2003, 08:36 AM   #23
JoeBar
Bite me if u can...
 
JoeBar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Athens
Posts: 5,889
A nice one specmike!
Many ppl out there will know better now...
__________________
Asus P5WDG2 Premium rev. 1.02G
Intel Pentium D 920 SL94S Malay @ 4.31GHz cooled by Thermaltake Big Water 745
GeCube Radeon X1900XT combined with LG 1980Q (8ms) 19' TFT monitor
2 x 1GB Transcend DDR2-533 @ 770mhz
2 x 36.7GB Western Digital Raptors Raid 0 | 300GB Western Digital Caviar SE SATA
Creative Soundblaster X-Fi Xtrememusic combined with Cambridge Soundworks Megaworks 550 THX
Asus E616P3 DVD | Asus 1608-P DVD-RW
Thermaltake Kandalf black super tower with 4 x 120mm and 2 x 90mm blue led fans | Chieftec 550W Triple 12V rails - 120mm fan
(Offline)  
Old 08-10-2003, 10:59 AM   #24
ob1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New York
Posts: 67
Exclamation Put that carriage after the horse

Great Post.
I sure this guide will help to dispel many myths,
and help some of us to set a upgrade path.
I decided to go with the lowest latency I can find in hopes to
enable Turbo and MAM at 1:1 to start.
I'm not sure how far I will push the envelope, but time will tell.
I expect a visit from the memory fairy this week with some hand picked
sticks. I'll post when I get the goods.

Thanks ,
-OB1-
(Offline)  
Old 08-10-2003, 03:15 PM   #25
tomasb2
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: California
Posts: 191
Thank you!!

I just got an Abit IC7-G & I had a P4 2.4C & 1 stick of OCZ (I know, I need two sticks!) PC3500 waiting for it to arrive. Everything else I took out of my old computer. (MARRIED W/ CHILDREN). Thermaltake case w/ 6 fans.

When I put it together I couldn't get it to overclock @ all until I read your post & the memory ratio part finally sunk in! I put it @ 5:4 ratio & now I am running @ 3.0 Very stable but hotter (?) than I would like. About 50 C @ idle & about 58 C full load.

Before I changed these from my Asus P4Pe they were running about 10 degrees less. When I looked on the Abit forum I saw alot of complaints about temps reporting high. I am not really sure if it is running hot or this is just a result of Abit monitoring hardware reporting differently than Asus. I can put my hand on the HSF & it doesn't even feel warm so I am not extremely worried about it.

I would like to know if a "better, faster" video card, SATA hard drive, etc. helps OC'ing results or just results in better overall performance
(Offline)  
Old 08-10-2003, 09:04 PM   #26
borodar
Resigned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: CO, Denver
Posts: 2,593
Frequencies: FSB - CPU - RAM

http://www.sigalas.com/lefteris/fsb.asp
(Offline)  
Old 08-10-2003, 09:31 PM   #27
CrocHammer
Croc - OlderOvercrocker
 
CrocHammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Surrey, BC
Posts: 1,345
Now that's cool.

Thanks Borodar.

It's very similar to an Excel database calculator someone did over at the old P4S533 Guide.
Wish I still had the 4:5 and 4:6 settings to play with.

__________________
C2D6600 on Asus P5B Deluxe with ArcticCooling Pro7 heatsink fan
EVGA 8800GTS with Samsung 226BW
4 x 1024 Mushkin HP2-6400
1XS. Barracuda 640 gig 7200.11
2 x S. Barracuda 320 gig 7200.10 in RAID O
LG sATA DVD/RW
Logitech G5 Laser mouse & G11 keyboard
Corsair HX-520 watt modular PSU
Lian-li PC60U -updated mod & lighting
4 x 80mm inlet and 2 x 80mm exit fans on Hexus fan controller
(Offline)  
Old 08-10-2003, 09:34 PM   #28
borodar
Resigned
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: CO, Denver
Posts: 2,593
yw, CrocHammer.

i came across this site after i was done playing with oc...
(Offline)  
Old 08-10-2003, 11:13 PM   #29
specmike
Yes, Yellowbeard
 
specmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Metro Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 2,647
Quote:
Originally posted by CrocHammer
Now that's cool.

Thanks Borodar.

It's very similar to an Excel database calculator someone did over at the old P4S533 Guide.
Wish I still had the 4:5 and 4:6 settings to play with.

That's a great link, thanx Borodar. I wish I knew about that when I started trying to figure all this stuff out, but, I think I have a better fundamental understanding since I have learn't it the hard way.

Hey Croc, how about a 3.2c running 4:5 with some DDR500 RAM? Now THAT would be the way to begin an OC!

Mike
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CORSAIR TECH SUPPORT
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Offline)  
Old 08-10-2003, 11:18 PM   #30
specmike
Yes, Yellowbeard
 
specmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Metro Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 2,647
Quote:
Originally posted by specmike
That's a great link, thanx Borodar. I wish I knew about that when I started trying to figure all this stuff out, but, I think I have a better fundamental understanding since I have learn't it the hard way.

Hey Croc, how about a 3.2c running 4:5 with some DDR500 RAM? Now THAT would be the way to begin an OC!

Mike
This may reveal how little I really do know about computers but answer me this. Why doesn't a MOBO company engineer a bios that would allow the user to designate any (reasonable) bios? That way, the ratios could be custom tailored by the user based on equipment. It would virtually eliminate the locked multiplier on the Intel CPUs, wouldn't it???
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
CORSAIR TECH SUPPORT
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
(Offline)  
 


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com

© 2006 - 2016 ABXZone Forums | About ABX Zone Forums | Advertisers | Investors | Legal | A member of the Crowdgather Forum Community