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Old 08-10-2003, 11:33 PM   #31
CrocHammer
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I wonder what Intel would say about that!!!!

Yes, right now of course most would not have a need for those ram settings in bios that would allow scaling up the memory. I could do that on my old board and got excellent memory performace from my PC2700 Samsung and the old 1.8A at 2.6gigs.

All that would change as the DDR range improves above 500 of course and maybe an updated bios could allow for that if there are not some other limiting factors inherent with existing board architectures.

By the way, OCZ indicates the new 4000 should become available next week.
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Old 08-12-2003, 10:56 PM   #32
djt
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Very interesting guide. I would like to know what you suggest I purchase for memory with an Asus P4C800-E and the 3.0GHz. chip. I would like to get a stable 3.5 GHz. overclock. I was thinking of the Corsair PC4000 (1024MB) but now after reading your guide I'm confused.
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Old 08-12-2003, 11:10 PM   #33
specmike
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Quote:
Originally posted by djt
Very interesting guide. I would like to know what you suggest I purchase for memory with an Asus P4C800-E and the 3.0GHz. chip. I would like to get a stable 3.5 GHz. overclock. I was thinking of the Corsair PC4000 (1024MB) but now after reading your guide I'm confused.
Confusion was not the goal, sorry:o Read the portion of the post where I quoted the top FSB achieved by Hawk with the CPUs he has tried. Basically, with PC4000, if you cannot hit FSB 250+, you will be underclocking and cannot get full performance out of the RAM that you pay so dearly for.

If you have a 3.0C, I'd recommend either PC3500 or PC3700 as you are more likely to hit the relative FSB, 217 and 233 respectively. I have heard of VERY few people hitting FSB250 with 3.0 CPUs.

If it was your money and I was spending it, I'd order a good air cooling unit, I like my Zalman 7000ALcu. Easy to install and cools really well. Then, (on the advice of big toe) I'd call Fry's Outpost and order what they call a "tray" CPU, a 2.4c. It is an OEM CPU that will OC VERY WELL and do some justice to that PC4000 RAM. Buy the tray CPU instead of the boxed. The boxed version has an Intel cooling fan and costs about $10 more. You can save that $10 and put it towards the cooling fan.

You may also want to look into actively cooling the NB. I cooled mine with a generic 40mm fan for $3. Good luck, Mike.
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Old 08-12-2003, 11:18 PM   #34
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Did you post somewhere on how you attached the heatsink?
Or was it you with zip ties?
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Old 08-12-2003, 11:34 PM   #35
specmike
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrocHammer
Did you post somewhere on how you attached the heatsink?
Or was it you with zip ties?
2 Tiny dots of super glue out on the fan guard where it sat on the NB sink just to hold it in place while the small blob of silicone dried to hold the fan body to the center of the heat sink where it is solid and says "ASUS". The silicone is rated to 210c so I guess I am safe. It's not hitech but it works.

The Zalman just BARELY touches it on the top left there but not enough for problems with either cooler. I installed the NB fan before I got the Zalman so in retrospect, I should have mounted it about 3mm farther down. NB sink stays KOOL to the touch now.

Mike
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Old 08-12-2003, 11:40 PM   #36
djt
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specmike,
I was already planning on getting the Zalman. Unfortunately I already have the 3.0GHz CPU, so I'll take your advice and get either Corsair 3500 or if it is available the OCZ 3700 Gold. Do you think 3.5GHz. is possible with this setup? Thanks for the help.
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Old 08-13-2003, 12:09 AM   #37
specmike
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Quote:
Originally posted by djt
specmike,
I was already planning on getting the Zalman. Unfortunately I already have the 3.0GHz CPU, so I'll take your advice and get either Corsair 3500 or if it is available the OCZ 3700 Gold. Do you think 3.5GHz. is possible with this setup? Thanks for the help.
It could be with some luck, it's always hit and miss with OCing. Either way, you'll have a great system. Let us know how it works out.

Mike
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Old 08-13-2003, 12:51 AM   #38
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Thanks Mike.

That's similar to how I installed the Blue Orb fan but I used 2 screws and some frag tape.
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Old 08-13-2003, 01:48 AM   #39
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Thumbs up

Nice work Mike
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Old 08-13-2003, 11:23 AM   #40
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Hey mike,

Great info on the ram, but I have a question about ram timings of the higher end ram PC3500, PC3700, PC4000, and above. Specifically, will ram thats rated at highs speeds with timings of 3 - 8 - 4 -4 or something similiar be able to run fast timings at lower speeds? I have heard from various sources that is not always the case.

The reason I ask is that I'm looking to purchase RAM that will run really fast at 166 - 200 mhz for my 2.53 ghz chip right now, but later in October when CPU prices drop (and i get more money) upgrade to a 2.6c chip and have sufficient room to OC.

The best ram I can find to meet this goal right now is Muskin 3500 Lvl II. But being noob, I'm wavering with my decision and am not really sure what to do.

Thanks in advance for any helpful advice

-Mootorks
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Old 08-13-2003, 03:09 PM   #41
specmike
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mootorks
Hey mike,

Great info on the ram, but I have a question about ram timings of the higher end ram PC3500, PC3700, PC4000, and above. Specifically, will ram thats rated at highs speeds with timings of 3 - 8 - 4 -4 or something similiar be able to run fast timings at lower speeds? I have heard from various sources that is not always the case.

The reason I ask is that I'm looking to purchase RAM that will run really fast at 166 - 200 mhz for my 2.53 ghz chip right now, but later in October when CPU prices drop (and i get more money) upgrade to a 2.6c chip and have sufficient room to OC.

The best ram I can find to meet this goal right now is Muskin 3500 Lvl II. But being noob, I'm wavering with my decision and am not really sure what to do.

Thanks in advance for any helpful advice

-Mootorks
The timings+spex that I have seen, there is sort of a cutoff at the PC3500. Various brands of PC3500 are/were made with the now discontinued Winbond BH5 ICs and probably some other good ICs also. They will run with VERY tight latency timings, 2,2,2,5, on the right MOBOs.

However, the PC3700 and up seems to be CAS 2.5 or higher and higher on the other 3 timings as well. I don't know if this is an IC limitation, adherence to JEDEC spex, or SPD limitation. Either way, the PC3700 and PC4000 that I have seen will not allow tighter timings even when underclocked.

I'm not very familiar with Mushkin but if that is the model made with the Winbond BH5 ICs, get some before they are gone!

Good luck, Mike
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Old 08-13-2003, 03:16 PM   #42
specmike
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Quote:
Originally posted by specmike
The timings+spex that I have seen, there is sort of a cutoff at the PC3500. Various brands of PC3500 are/were made with the now discontinued Winbond BH5 ICs and probably some other good ICs also. They will run with VERY tight latency timings, 2,2,2,5, on the right MOBOs.

However, the PC3700 and up seems to be CAS 2.5 or higher and higher on the other 3 timings as well. I don't know if this is an IC limitation, adherence to JEDEC spex, or SPD limitation. Either way, the PC3700 and PC4000 that I have seen will not allow tighter timings even when underclocked.

I'm not very familiar with Mushkin but if that is the model made with the Winbond BH5 ICs, get some before they are gone!

Good luck, Mike
Although I might add that both types of PC4000 that I have tested?used (Corsair and OCZ) will allow somewhat tighter timings ( in the neighborhood of 2.5,3,3,6 POSSIBLY). But, as you can tell, this is not as tight as what I assume you are speaking of, like the 2,2,2,5 we all know and love.
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Old 08-13-2003, 04:01 PM   #43
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Thumbs up Memory or lack thereof !

Hello,

I have been on a search mission for lowest latency
memory @ CAS 2 that I could find.

OCZ tech support got a P4P800 for testing, and found the mother board real finicky @ 1:1 with Turbo and Performance mode turned on !
They called yesterday to say they found something for me.
These guys have fantastic customer support!!
It will still require 1.7 V, and run 2-2-3-6, but it is stable .
I have read on other forums where Corsair present stock has to now run
@ crazy Vdimm for it to work .
It seems the present available memory is not as good as the BH-5.
While waiting for OCZ to find some sticks that worked, I located some
PC3500 1024 kits using Winbond BH-5 (W942508BH-5 330WF)
@ hardcorecooling.com (good people).

I went for the OCZ (hand picked 3200 EL) because I am a nube and did not want to take a chance.
Does anyone know if the 330WF is a date or production code?
(I may want some if it is the right stuff )
How can you tell if these sticks are BH-5 rev. 1 ??
It seems different grades of BH-5 were used in PC3200- PC3700.

Thanks,
-OB1-

Last edited by ob1; 08-13-2003 at 07:02 PM..
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Old 08-13-2003, 10:05 PM   #44
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SpecMike, and anyone else that cares to comment.....Here are some results that I got testing different memory on a 2.4c CPU.

Is the FSB or tighter timings question really that simple?

I wanted to see what kind of benchies I would get using the highest 1:1 O/C and tightest timings VS the highest 5:4 O/C and tightest timings on two different types of memory.

Kingston HyperX PC3500 vs. OCZ PC3700 Gold

I found something interesting and could throw a wrench in what is actually better.

I used the following hardware on all tests:

Asus P4C800 Deluxe, 2.4c, Radeon 9700Pro, air cooling

High FSB vs Tight timings...Here is what I got.

Test #1 Kingston HyperX PC3500 2x256

Highest 1:1 FSB acheived was = 220
Memory Timings = 2-2-2-5 (PAT and "Turbo" enabled) (Very Tight)

Sandra "Buffered" = 5404/5342
3DMark2001se = 16,518
PCMark2002 = 8927 memory score

Highest 5:4 FSB acheived was = 274
Memory Timings = 2-3-2-5 (PAT and "Turbo" enabled) (Very Tight)

Sandra "Buffered" = 6012/6020
3DMark2001se = 18008
PCMark2002 = 10196 memory score
____________________________________________________

Test #2 OCZ PC3700 Gold 2x256

Highest 1:1 FSB acheived was = 261
Memory Timings = 2.5-3-3-7 (PAT =on PAM=Standard) (Not Tight)

Sandra "Buffered" = 6162/6143
3DMark2001se = 17518
PCMark2002 = 11194 memory score

Highest 5:4 FSB acheived was = 275
Memory Timings = 2.5-3-3-7 (PAT=on PAM=Standard) (Not Tight)

Sandra "Buffered" = 6066/6064
3DMark2001se = 17781
PCMark2002 = 10789 memory score

My thought here on the results:

1. It is obvious that the OCZ PC3700 Gold was the runaway winner at the 1:1 ratio due to its ability to handle a higher FSB even though the timings were not as tight as the Kingston. The OCZ scored higher in all benchies.

2. However, when I switched to a 5:4 ratio, things got a lot closer. As you can see in my results, the Kingston actually scored higher than the OCZ in 3Dmark2001 when FSB was maxed and timings were at their tightest.

Soooo, due to the fact that the Kingston got an 18,0008 3Dmark score vs a 17,781 for the OCZ it appears that the Kingston would actually give BETTER performance due to the fact that it can handle tighter timings.

Sure, the OCZ handles the higher 1:1 FSB much better, BUT.....when going with the 5:4 ratio, the OCZ could not handle the tighter timings and "turbo" wouldn't even work.

Bottom line was.....the Kingston PC3500 which was actually $100 cheaper than the OCZ was able to get the highest overall benchie in 3Dmark. Even though I had to use a 5:4 divider to get that score, it still got higher scores overall.

Now sure, its great that the OCZ could handle a 261 FSB and get good benchies at 1:1, but if all a guy was concerned about was the highest possible 3DMark score, it appears that the Kingston 3500 is the better of the two.

Am I right or am I missing something here?

Hence my question about whether FSB or tighter timings is best....
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Old 08-13-2003, 11:14 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagnumR6vet

Test #1 Kingston HyperX PC3500 2x256
Highest 5:4 FSB acheived was = 274
Memory Timings = 2-3-2-5 (PAT and "Turbo" enabled) (Very Tight)

PCMark2002 = 10196 memory score
____________________________________________________

Test #2 OCZ PC3700 Gold 2x256
Highest 5:4 FSB acheived was = 275
Memory Timings = 2.5-3-3-7 (PAT=on PAM=Standard) (Not Tight)

PCMark2002 = 10789 memory score
MyTEST Samsung PC3200 2x512
Highest 5:4 FSB achieved was = 270 (for test)
Memory Timings = 2.5, 3, 3, 5(Pat=on Turbo=on) (Not Tight)

PCMark2002 = 10323 memory score

Quote:
Bottom line was.....the Kingston PC3500 which was actually $100 cheaper than the OCZ
Samsung was cheaper still.
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